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Mechanics | Skeleton | Common Breakdown Ref | All commons for playtesting |
Recent updates to Community Set: (Generated at 2024-05-12 17:43:19)
I don't think I'm a fan on "Enlighten-- Untap," because a lot of players are going to think it's completely useless.
That's the tall and short of it, yes.
Ooh. Your idea sounds interesting, but I'm not quite clear what you're saying. Are you proposing that we go back to the gold commons and edit them to have the only Enlighten triggers be "Untap ~" (and give them tap abilities instead)? That sounds fairly interesting, though it's going to need careful tuning to be abilities that are okay to use twice per cycle rather than once, sometimes more. Looking at the current skeleton the Enlighten commons are Aeran Banker, Aeran Elf, Aeran Priest, and Nimbus Elf. I think it's plausible that between those ideas, and swapping around a couple of commons for uncommons, we could get a fair handful of tap abilities plus Enlighten-untaps onto commons. And then presumably have all the uncommon Enlighten triggers do things other than untapping?
(I'm also still fine with the idea of having the off-colour uncommons Enlighten-untap instead.)
That last option sounds best, if we were to do it. The only problem I can see is that we might be forcing too many themes on this set. Maybe not, though. Hmm...
You know, the biggest problem I have with this idea is it really should have been our implementation on commons. It's a nice way to keep things simple, while letting each creature do it's own individual thing. In fact, I'm kind of wondering if we should just go back and do that. It looks like a couple of the Enlighten triggers in common could be Tap activations, and we could probably cobble a couple more from the uncommon pool to do that as well, and switch some of the commons that don't work as tap abilities into uncommons. That is, assuming other people agree with me.
Making some more noncreatures with Enlighten sounds good in theory, but has its own problems. Note that they also need to be gold, which means they're enchantments, unless we bring back coloured artifacts which I'd usually rather not do. We could try to turn Observation Specialist, Lecturing Senator, and Psychomancer into enchantments, but that makes them rather less playable (harder to justify the deck slot) as well as less interactive (harder for most monocolours to remove).
I do like the idea of getting Enlighten onto some of the off-colour cycle. It's tricky to figure out how that could work, though. I don't think we want Enlighten trigger costs other than , because there are already two Enlighten modes - no-payment and pay-. And trying to fit an Enlighten triggered ability plus a separate off-colour activated ability onto each of five cards sounds pretty hard.
Perhaps... we could have the off-colour cycle all gain the line "Enlighten - Whenever you draw a card, you may untap CARDNAME"? (And standardise on tap costs for all of them?)
Mm, that's true. It is a very natural ability, but Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind did get there first.
I guess if people still enjoy using this as it is - which you mention Tom did - then it's probably fine to keep it at its current effect, with the mana payment.
I have very limited time to spend on Multiverse for a while so I'm sorry I can't weigh in with a more detailed opinion. I love the tricolors but if they have to go for the set to work, so be it. They do force the creature count rather high and squish out room for enlighten. What if we fused enlighten onto some the off-color cycle and/or made some more noncreature permanents with enlighten?
Is it annoying that removing the activation would cut into the specialness of Niv-Mizzet? Maybe. It's probably fine if it does, though.
That said, the fact that Niv-Mizzet exists kind of makes me not want to replicate his ability on any card. Meh. It's such a natural choice, though.
Imho, if it's a choice between Enlighten triggers and tri-color activations, I got to go with the Enlighten triggers.
It's a shame, but the set wasn't really built with those tri-colors in mind, and we already have a lot of themes. I suppose had we thought about this at the beginning we probably would have came to the same conclusion. Oh well.
But, yeah, I'm supporting list 3, and working from there. Anyone else want to pipe in?
Putting that into practice, here are two possible groupings that are closer to 50% creatures than 80% creatures.
List 2, using second choices to get 8/15 creatures, 4 instants, 3 enchantments (but only 2 Enlighten triggers):
List 3, keeping more first choices but breaking up the off-colour cycle, also ending up with 8 creatures, 4 instants, 3 enchantments (and a nice 6 enlighten triggers):
Does anyone have any preferences between these two options, proposed tweaks to either, or reckon we should stick with something closer to List 1 in my previous comment with the full off-colour cycle and more of the enlighten creatures?
Okay, having a go at gathering together a proposed set of uncommons here. My first proposed list is:
List 1:
I still like this one the best out of the many white-blue submissions. Unassailable Heights was a strong contender too, and Dangerous Observation could easily be white-blue.
This is fun because it subtly rewards playing with access to lots of colours of mana. Forbidden Knowledge and Dwindle Into Nothingness are good alternatives.
I also like Masofreude. I'm not convinced by the "negative Enlighten" of Capricious Turncoat, but it does have two advocates so I'm prepared to be outvoted here if necessary.
Architectural Re-Imagining is the competing Naturalize proposal. Cloud Aria is lovely but I don't think the common and uncommon cards should both be manafixing.
The many alternatives include University Doctor and Dangerous Observation.
Tough choice here; I went with this one as Glutton for Absolution and Butler Manufacturer seem to be playing into themes that aren't especially supported in the rest of the set, but they're all nice.
Though I'm rather fond of Rhim District Senator as well, and I'd quite like to see either Rhim District Senator or Forbidden Knowledge added to the list.
Not too sure about this, but land destruction (City Planning Official) will hurt gold more than mono, and Arc Witch is too close to Psychomancer.
It's the most natural way to get a effect that can be seen as .
Each of Bright-Cloud Advocate and Daywatch Guardian could be tweaked to be a good contender here though.
Cut the Knot is a cantrip-Naturalize alternative.
Lemmingform and Eminent Domain are other alternatives.
The big problem here is that of the 15 gold uncommons, 12 of this proposed list are creatures. To me that feels way too high. (For commons, most colours have no more than 50% of their commons as creatures; uncommons are a little more flexible, but 80% is pretty extreme.) So maybe I should choose a lot of the noncreature second-choice options and go with those instead?
It's perhaps worth considering that one option is backing out the off-colour-activation cycle, because they are dragging the creature count so high. I do like them (and I did specifically ask for more), but they're not all very compelling, so we could consider removing those five and adding a bunch more noncreatures in their place.
Red searches for sorceries. Black searches for anything. Green... searches for creatures or lands, but really not sorceries. I wonder if this could be tweaked to feel slightly more green-compatible by saying "for a sorcery card or land card"?
add flying
The activation here is so expensive, I wonder if it could perhaps be "for each creature you control"? That feels more red and white (Akroan Hoplite, Tears of Rage, Dogpile etc).
I wonder whether this could work without the mana payment. At that point it's closer to Prodigal Pyromancer or Honden of Infinite Rage, and should perhaps become 1/1, but that might be fine.
i like it. it's what does. they don't follow the norms. this card tells you that power comes with a price.
Plague Sliver is more of a Sliver hose than something you'd include in an all-sliver deck.
Why wouldn't you? It's only one card, and not on a common. That's like asking "Why would Wizards want to print a Sliver that hurt you for each sliver you control?" Well, because it's interesting, and makes you think. That's why they printed Plague Sliver.
Not only that, but a negative ability helps define the set. It's part of the reason why Terror was included in Mirrodin - to help players realize how many artifact creatures were kicking around, and how, what was normally considered good, may not be so good in this set. By adding a card that does bad things when you draw cards, it really hammers into players just how many cards in this set draw a card. Some players may not quite notice that a card like Spin with the Attack was an intentional choice to give a nudge to Enlighten. They'll notice, however, when the same card negatively impacts them, though.
I don't understand your desire for a negative Enlighten trigger at all. Why would we want to turn Aer's main mechanic into a drawback? It's extremely counterintuitive. Is there a drawback Landfall card that I'm forgetting?
3/4 first striker may not be an intuitive choice, but it would help balance the creature if it's officially too good. I suggest tabling this until people get a chance to playtest and prove it's too good (which is better than undercosting it, and not knowing if it could have been pushed)... assuming it even gets selected for the skeleton.
Mmm, there's really not very many flying 3/4 creatures that the first strike would matter against.
And it does make it seem exciting, which it needs to be or having a disadvantage players will discard it without consideration.
Maybe fair? Maybe underpriced a tiny bit? It's hard to tell without testing. My guess is this is too cheap, but is too expensive; but that's pure guess - and would be a silly cost.
against font or opportunity, first strike is moot. you just race and see who gets there first.
so when does first strike matter? it seems to make it a better defender than attacker. so maybe replace first strike with intimidate. it may seem redundant, but in fact the best chump blockers are white spirits (in real Magic) and other flyers (in this set). sure intimidate on multicolor is very rare, but could be interesting in this set.
Mmm. Don't know. One extra power for a lack of a great bestow ability/cost seems legit. First Strike for the possibility of everything going totally wrong when your opponent plays Font of Mythos, or targets you with a Opportunity to win the game? That, and how much weight does being two colors actually add? Oh, and it wouldn't be wise to play this in the same deck as Sign in Blood or Burning Inquiry. That's got to count for something.
I do know that cards like this need to be strong, or they fall flat. But printing broken cards isn't healthy, either.
although first strike may be too much
Ah, so it is! Thank you amuseum.
Added Constant Philosopher, which went all rare on me. Adjusted, by adding Capricious Turncoat.
cf. Herald of Torment 3/3 for 1bb. this should be fine
Rares are rares. Updated, and made Capricious Turncoat to make up for it.