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Mechanics | Skeleton | Common Breakdown Ref | All commons for playtesting |
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Mechanics | Skeleton | Common Breakdown Ref | All commons for playtesting |
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Having been staring at the skeleton for the 20 gold commons, I've been musing quite a bit about what multicolour uncommon needs. Here are my thoughts.
Any other ideas about what we'll need in gold uncommons? The discussion over on Uncommon Design wasn't conclusive, but we may have either 15 or 10 slots to work with.
A proposal was made to have some tri-colour cards at uncommon. Personally I don't think that's a good idea unless they're gold-hybrid like Messenger Falcons, given the monocolour cards in decks will be quite heavily monocolour in some cases. Leave the tri-colour cards for rare.
Gathering all the suggested gold uncommons together:

creatures: Ascended Lawmage, Observation Specialist, Nightwatch Officer
noncreatures: Unassailable Heights, Study of the Unknown, Ambassador's Proposal, Stasis Field, Aer Citizenship
creatures: Lecturing Senator
noncreatures: Spiral of Ascension, Forbidden Knowledge, Dwindle Into Nothingness, Grasp of Notions
creatures: Makeup Artist, Cloudcover Phoenix, Conceited Soloist, Capricious Turncoat 
noncreatures: Apococlasm, Masofreude, Anatomy Test, Unslip the Soul
creatures: Firelily Gardener 
noncreatures: Infighting, Architectural Re-Imagining, Cloud Aria
creatures: Aven Seer, Cloudbeast of Burden, Lofty Sanctifier, Serra Aerngel, University Doctor
noncreatures: Truthsayer's Hymn, Dangerous Observation

creatures: Brightcloud Lightbringer 
noncreatures: Denounce the Great 
creatures: Dubious Librarian, Psychomancer 
noncreatures: Aer Conscription, Steam Leak, Brain Shot 
creatures: Refertilizer
noncreatures: Unslip the Soul 
creatures: Fles Eria Marshall
noncreatures: Spin with the Attack, Ember Mists, Squabble in the Ranks, Cut the Knot
creatures: Aer Mechanist 
noncreatures: Snakefoil, Lemmingform, Eminent Domain, Traverse the Shoals
creatures with
activation: Bright-Cloud Advocate, Nightwatch Jailer, Daywatch Guardian, Aeran Netmaster
creatures with
activation: Loretower Archivist, Butler Manufacturer, Glutton for Absolution
creatures with
activation: Cloudcover Drake, Rhim District Senator, Viashino Fetishist, Curio Hustler
creatures with
activation: City Planning Official, Firelily Pests, Arc Witch, Aeran Opportunist
creatures with
activation: Senate Magnifier, Dancing Master, Communal Protector, Morgan Charger
I agree that tri-color cards should be reserved for rare, since we have so little space and they would be difficult to use with the monocolor theme. We could, as you suggest, have gold-hybrid cards. We could also have some cards with off-color activated abilities.
We definitely need some more Enlighten, and some removal, card draw, and combat tricks.
Maybe we should do all of the monocolor uncommons first, see what roles are left to be filled, and then do the gold uncommons.
If we want card draw, combat tricks, and removal, sounds like Spin with the Attack is definitely in.
I'm not sure about off-colour activations given this set's flavour. Say we have a green creature with a white activation. Is the green creature a Fungus? Is it Aeran? Is it a Fungus with some affinity for the alien enchantment creatures?
Something else to consider for uncommon is one or two manafixers. We have Nimbus Elf and Aeran Sunrise at common; can we add a
and a 
manafixer at uncommon? Or is that too cute?
I'm sorry. By "off-color activation," I meant having a two-color card with an activated ability from a third color, thus making it clearly Aeran.
I think a "cycle" of mana fixers for each color would be adorable.
Okay, added Refertilizer as a quick black-green submission.
@Link: Ah! Yes, that's a very nice idea. Two-colour with third colour activated ability would be a good way to make the gold cards feel even more gold.
While I agree that we need some good enchantment and artifact removal, I'd think it would be more appropriate for those cards to appear in the mono-colored slots so that everyone has an equal chance to access them... instead of printing something like Aura Mutation that can only be accessed by Green/White. I do like the idea, however, of sticking cards like Lofty Sanctifier which isn't as direct an answer, but would probably do a more efficient job in the long run. A couple more answers like that in the multi-color uncommon run would make sense to me.
Discussion of stompy-ness on Serra Aerngel, and evasion on Ascended Lawmage, and double-strike on Fles Eria Marshall.
If we've got some monocolour disenchants as well, then gold uncommon probably only needs one. Remember our gold uncommon slots are extremely squeezed: the skeleton says we've got 20 but I think from the discussion on Uncommon Design it's likely to actually be 15.
We could do 5 "three-color" creatures, 5 ally colored creatures (with Enlighten?), and 5 noncreatures?
I think we may need to avoid a strict cycle, but those proportions sound a reasonable place to start.
But I love cycles. Players love cycles. Everybody expects them, and when you make something that seems like it should be in one, and then don't complete it, people get mad.
Sorry, I was too hasty. We should certainly have some cycles, probably a minimum of one in each rarity. But I'm worried that we end up turning all the multicolour into tight cycles and finding it doesn't work.
I don't think cycles are the same thing as slots. I feel fairly strongly that a set's slots should be balanced across colours and rarities: so if there's one rare blue-black card, there should be one rare black-red card, etc. But one could be an enchantment, another an instant, another a sorcery.
Keeping creatures vs noncreatures balanced isn't strictly required, but is often a good idea. But it wouldn't mean that the 5 noncreatures in Link's comment would be a "cycle" in any meaningful way; they'd just happen to be the only cards at their rarity-colour combination.
As an aside, cycles don't always need to be the same permanent type. I do think it's best if we had at least 5 creatures, but if we wanted to do a cylce of manacyclers, for example, we could toss one on a creature, and another on an instant...
But, you know, it's probably best to go over what we need before we talk about how we're going to design it. Enlighten needs cards that draw cards, so that should be a priority, I think. In fact, when we get to the uncommon mono-colored submissions, I'm going to hammer on this. There's practically no card draw in mono commons, which I think is fine, as long as we really push to make a lot of card drawing in uncommon. Makes the card draw cards chase in a draft. That works for me.
So, so far we need:
What else do we need? Are we interested in anti-ground, for example, or is that even necessary?
"Practically no card draw in mono commons" - are you counting the manacyclers?
But, yes, I agree we want some more at uncommon. I don't think we need any "anti-ground" - flying creatures have a powerful advantage over ground creatures inherently due to flying's asymmetry.
I was counting the manacyclers. What I forgot to count, however, is that there's an black 'enchantress' for fortifications, and a looter in red. That brings us up to 8 in mono common, 5 of which are cyclers. Better than what I was giving it credit for, but could supply more support, too. If we kept those numbers in uncommon, it would probably be fine, though. Unlike Metalcraft or Landfall, Enlighten isn't the core mechanic of Aer... just one of 6.
I made Firelily Gardener, University Doctor, and Dangerous Observation.
We really need some submissions for colour pairs other than
:) Well, especially
and
.
Ah, yes. I hadn't even realized how many
cards there were already. Dangerous Observation could easily be 
instead.
I think some colours just feel more Aer and feel more like enlighten so we think of cards for them first. I think we should be able to make UB and RB Aer (although if not, we may have to rethink a little).
Link has been throwing out loads of good uncommon ideas, which is awesome. At the moment we're at risk of every gold uncommon being designed by Link, which isn't a problem except if anyone else wants to have their designs considered :)
So this is an official open call for multicolour uncommon submissions. To anyone who'd like to: Please create some uncommon multicolour cards. The parameters we're creating within:
I've added Nightwatch Officer, Makeup Artist, Architectural Re-Imagining, and Cloud Aria.
After browsing my unplaced cards and Cards with No Home, here are some cards from those sets that could potentially belong in uncommon Aer:
Obviously these aren't all perfect fits, and I just made a quick perusal. It's just a list of more options.
Added
Though, one accidently became a rare, and another a blue card. These things happen.
Added Aer Citizenship. Also added it to my bullets.
I added Dubious Librarian, Birth-Rate Census, Conceited Soloist, and Brightcloud Lightbringer.
Okay, we've got a pretty good collection of submissions up there now. Now for the painful task of culling them to fit the slots...
The discussion at Uncommon Design suggests we probably have just 15 slots for gold uncommons. (It suggests we have either 10 or 15, and I'll argue forcefully for 15 rather than 10.) Those 15 need to be in a pattern of slots. Possible approaches are therefore:
I think it'd be pretty odd to have twice as many enemy-colour uncommons than ally-colour uncommons, so I think #5 is probably out. That means there's only room for five enemy-colour cards, and they should either all have off-colour activations or none of them.
Looking at the submissions so far, I think all of the off-colour activation submissions are fairly solid (Bright-Cloud Advocate, Loretower Archivist, Cloudcover Drake, City Planning Official, Senate Magnifier). But including them has the harsh consequence of kicking out all other enemy-colour uncommons; either that or restricting us to one other
card and just one 
uncommon in total. Owch!
Looking at all the uncommon submissions so far, my subjective favourites (just one person's opinion) are:
I fear the way the slots work out, several of these won't be able to make it in. But that's fine; one card is not worth a set. Anyone want to chime in on the topic of whether we keep the off-colour activations, and which of the above-linked submissions are your favourites?
I'm not sure I should comment because so many of the submissions are mine. I will say that I really like the idea of the Enemy w/ Allied Abilities cycle, but I created all but one of them, so of course I like them.
I don't know if we need to count Option 5 out. Enemy colors tend to happen more rarely than allied colors, so maybe on Aer, where multicolor is so normal, we can give enemy colors a bit of favoritism.
There is another option, too: balancing the cards not along ally/enemy lines but just so that each individual color is represented the same number of times. This was done with the RtR/Gatecrash guilds, if I remember right.
Alex's and Link's comments generally sound right to me, although I'm not sure which solution is best.
I'm somewhat persuaded by Link's argument, and the numbers are really tight. So I'm currently leaning towards option 5: one of each of the off-colour-activation enemy-colour-gold creatures, plus one more uncommon in each of the ten colour-pairs.
I've voiced a number of preferences in my comment 4 days ago. What I'd most like now is two things:
I'll work on an alternate take of the off-color activations tomorrow. Are there any other holes, or questionable choices for a color combination for me to make a second pass at?
Also, what's the ratio we're aiming for? I mean, do we want 5 enlighten, 5 card draw and 5 other? Or are we aiming for some other combination? How about Naturalize control and/or anti-flying/anti-mono? Is there a minimum number of these cards that we want in the set?
Some extra takes from the Enemies w/Ally Activation Cycle: Nightwatch Jailer, Daywatch Guardian, Butler Manufacturer, Rhim District Senator, Firelily Pests, and Dancing Master.
Answering jmg's questions:
As for holes:
I added Regrowth Specialist for
competition, though I really like Refertilizer.
As for weighing in on the
ideas: I think Aven Seer is rather inelegant. I do feel like we need a flying creature with a big butt like Cloudbeast of Burden, Lofty Sanctifier, or Serra Aerngel, and out of those I prefer Serra Aerngel or Lofty Sanctifier (though I think Elf is the wrong creature type).
I would like to see Truthsayer's Hymn in the set, but it might belong at Rare instead.
Added Aeran Netmaster, Glutton for Absolution, Viashino Fetishist, Arc Witch and Communal Protector to the list. I'll have to come back tomorrow and beef up GB or BR. Also, we talked about how Unslip the Soul could change colors, and it still could move to black-red. Funny... it feels as right to me in black-red as it must have felt for Link in B-G. Maybe it just belongs in mono-black. It don't seem right there... but neither does Murder...
A second pass at the tri-cards that didn't quite stick the first time: Curio Hustler, Aeran Opportunist and Morgan Charger. I had a WuB card in mind while I was half-asleep at night, too. No idea what it was. It sounded great at the time, but I'm sure it was probably absolute rot when taken out of the context of a good dream.
Added Constant Philosopher, which went all rare on me. Adjusted, by adding Capricious Turncoat.
Okay, having a go at gathering together a proposed set of uncommons here. My first proposed list is:
List 1:
I still like this one the best out of the many white-blue submissions. Unassailable Heights was a strong contender too, and Dangerous Observation could easily be white-blue.
This is fun because it subtly rewards playing with access to lots of colours of mana. Forbidden Knowledge and Dwindle Into Nothingness are good alternatives.
I also like Masofreude. I'm not convinced by the "negative Enlighten" of Capricious Turncoat, but it does have two advocates so I'm prepared to be outvoted here if necessary.
Architectural Re-Imagining is the competing Naturalize proposal. Cloud Aria is lovely but I don't think the common and uncommon
The many alternatives include University Doctor and Dangerous Observation.
Tough choice here; I went with this one as Glutton for Absolution and Butler Manufacturer seem to be playing into themes that aren't especially supported in the rest of the set, but they're all nice.
Though I'm rather fond of Rhim District Senator as well, and I'd quite like to see either Rhim District Senator or Forbidden Knowledge added to the list.
Not too sure about this, but land destruction (City Planning Official) will hurt gold more than mono, and Arc Witch is too close to Psychomancer.
It's the most natural way to get a
Each of Bright-Cloud Advocate and Daywatch Guardian could be tweaked to be a good contender here though.
Cut the Knot is a cantrip-Naturalize alternative.
Lemmingform and Eminent Domain are other alternatives.
The big problem here is that of the 15 gold uncommons, 12 of this proposed list are creatures. To me that feels way too high. (For commons, most colours have no more than 50% of their commons as creatures; uncommons are a little more flexible, but 80% is pretty extreme.) So maybe I should choose a lot of the noncreature second-choice options and go with those instead?
It's perhaps worth considering that one option is backing out the off-colour-activation cycle, because they are dragging the creature count so high. I do like them (and I did specifically ask for more), but they're not all very compelling, so we could consider removing those five and adding a bunch more noncreatures in their place.
Putting that into practice, here are two possible groupings that are closer to 50% creatures than 80% creatures.
List 2, using second choices to get 8/15 creatures, 4 instants, 3 enchantments (but only 2 Enlighten triggers):
List 3, keeping more first choices but breaking up the off-colour cycle, also ending up with 8 creatures, 4 instants, 3 enchantments (and a nice 6 enlighten triggers):
Does anyone have any preferences between these two options, proposed tweaks to either, or reckon we should stick with something closer to List 1 in my previous comment with the full off-colour cycle and more of the enlighten creatures?
Imho, if it's a choice between Enlighten triggers and tri-color activations, I got to go with the Enlighten triggers.
It's a shame, but the set wasn't really built with those tri-colors in mind, and we already have a lot of themes. I suppose had we thought about this at the beginning we probably would have came to the same conclusion. Oh well.
But, yeah, I'm supporting list 3, and working from there. Anyone else want to pipe in?
I have very limited time to spend on Multiverse for a while so I'm sorry I can't weigh in with a more detailed opinion. I love the tricolors but if they have to go for the set to work, so be it. They do force the creature count rather high and squish out room for enlighten. What if we fused enlighten onto some the off-color cycle and/or made some more noncreature permanents with enlighten?
Making some more noncreatures with Enlighten sounds good in theory, but has its own problems. Note that they also need to be gold, which means they're enchantments, unless we bring back coloured artifacts which I'd usually rather not do. We could try to turn Observation Specialist, Lecturing Senator, and Psychomancer into enchantments, but that makes them rather less playable (harder to justify the deck slot) as well as less interactive (harder for most monocolours to remove).
I do like the idea of getting Enlighten onto some of the off-colour cycle. It's tricky to figure out how that could work, though. I don't think we want Enlighten trigger costs other than
, because there are already two Enlighten modes - no-payment and pay-
. And trying to fit an Enlighten triggered ability plus a separate off-colour activated ability onto each of five cards sounds pretty hard.
Perhaps... we could have the off-colour cycle all gain the line "Enlighten - Whenever you draw a card, you may untap CARDNAME"? (And standardise on tap costs for all of them?)
That last option sounds best, if we were to do it. The only problem I can see is that we might be forcing too many themes on this set. Maybe not, though. Hmm...
You know, the biggest problem I have with this idea is it really should have been our implementation on commons. It's a nice way to keep things simple, while letting each creature do it's own individual thing. In fact, I'm kind of wondering if we should just go back and do that. It looks like a couple of the Enlighten triggers in common could be Tap activations, and we could probably cobble a couple more from the uncommon pool to do that as well, and switch some of the commons that don't work as tap abilities into uncommons. That is, assuming other people agree with me.
Ooh. Your idea sounds interesting, but I'm not quite clear what you're saying. Are you proposing that we go back to the gold commons and edit them to have the only Enlighten triggers be "Untap ~" (and give them tap abilities instead)? That sounds fairly interesting, though it's going to need careful tuning to be abilities that are okay to use twice per cycle rather than once, sometimes more. Looking at the current skeleton the Enlighten commons are Aeran Banker, Aeran Elf, Aeran Priest, and Nimbus Elf. I think it's plausible that between those ideas, and swapping around a couple of commons for uncommons, we could get a fair handful of tap abilities plus Enlighten-untaps onto commons. And then presumably have all the uncommon Enlighten triggers do things other than untapping?
(I'm also still fine with the idea of having the off-colour uncommons Enlighten-untap instead.)
That's the tall and short of it, yes.
I don't think I'm a fan on "Enlighten-- Untap," because a lot of players are going to think it's completely useless.