[Democracy: Bottom-up Set]: Recent Activity
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Recent updates to [Democracy: Bottom-up Set]: (Generated at 2025-05-01 06:10:42)
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Recent updates to [Democracy: Bottom-up Set]: (Generated at 2025-05-01 06:10:42)
I think casting it directly as in my wording is probably safest. That way the spell side is never on the battlefield.
this is closest to current morph reminder: "Turn it face up any time and cast it for its morph cost."
How about "You may turn it face up and cast it by paying its spellmorph cost"?
To me, Flying, Defender, Vigilance, Intimidate, Landwalk, and Deathtouch all seem like they could make interesting "tribes."
I will admit that using creature types as tribes is a lot easier and probably more grokkable, though.
Well, when you copy a spell, you don't cast it either. But usually the effect allows you to choose targets. Modes we don't worry about for now as long as the cards we make are simple.
We need to consider two conditions: the base and the modifications by an ability. The base rule is when the spell is in play for no reason or has no ability that allows it to be cast (e.g. Break Open, Humility). In this case, it goes to the owner's graveyard as a state-based action. The modifications are instructions by various mechanics and abilities. In our case, what happens when we activate Morph to turn it face up. As part of the resolution, the controller may cast it as it is turned face-up. If not cast, then the SBA for the base rule kicks in and puts it in the graveyard.
So Spellmorph reminder should be something like this (changes to Alex's version):
Spellmorph (You may cast this face down as a 2/2 creature for
. You may cast it from the battlefield face-down for its spellmorph cost. If this remains on the battlefield face-up, put it in the graveyard.)
Level up seems okay, but it uses level counters instead of quest counters. Is that fine everybody?
X as a cost could work. I'm thinking more like cumulative upkeep so it triggers once a turn, but the cost is not cumulative (i.e. it's the same cost every turn.). I can think of two varieties. A) You have to pay N times. If you do, you get the bonus and it sticks around. B) You get the bonus as long as you pay the cost. otherwise, sacrifice it.
Interaction with other major themes--Morph, control matters: Probably the next best trigger after landfall is when a creature comes under your control. This works with playing your own creatures or gaining control of someone else's creature.
Interaction with minor themes--tribal, hybrid, traps: This is more open-ended. But they probably should be uncommon or higher. This could push players toward certain tribes or colors. Triggers can be almost anything: play a tribal card, control a tribal card, sacrifice one, attack with one, flip over one, etc.
Hidden Quests, with Morph: These are like hidden agendas that only you know about. That's the original intent of Morph, to surprise the opponent. The morph cost is usually a trigger from an opponent's action. For instance, when an opponent discards, you may turn this face up. Of course you can play the Quest face up per normal as an enchantment spell. So consider some bonus when it turns face up as opposed to casting normally.
I thought Lorwyn worked pretty well at tying the different tribes together. A Giant player would pick up Stinkdrinker Daredevil, and Lowland Oaf, and now they want to pick up some Goblins too. A Merfolk player would pick up a Stonybrook Banneret and a Sigil Tracer, and now they want Wizards too.
What I liked about Lorwyn was how they tried to make it more modular: it wasn't just "pick a tribe, play as many as possible", there were lots of cards that encouraged combinations (eg. shapeshifters, elves that cared about giants, etc).
But I'm not sure it turned out that well in practice, I'm worried all that just made you feel like you were supposed to play "all one tribe", but failed.
Is there any way of doing the same sort of thing?
Eg. Cards rewarding you for playing 2-tribe tribal? Eg. mix-and-match tribal decks with one characteristic race and one iconic race? Eg. cards which work with multiple tribes but only one at once?
FWIW what I liked about luck counters was:
Is there any way of achieving the same aim?
Eg. All quests (or all common quests) have a form of "whenever you do [mildly difficult thing], draw a card"
Eg. Quests have "remove N quest counters from permanents you control" rather than just this one
?
There are easily enough evergreen keywords. I recently put a list over on Tel Eria Guardian:
White: Double strike, First Strike, Flash, Flying, Protection, Vigilance, Lifelink
Blue: Flash, Flying, Islandwalk, Protection, Hexproof
Black: Deathtouch, Intimidate, Flying, Haste, Lifelink, Swampwalk, Regeneration
Red: Double strike, First Strike, Intimidate, Haste, Mountainwalk, Trample
Green: Deathtouch, Flash, Forestwalk, Regeneration, Trample, Hexproof, Vigilance, Reach
Link: I really don't think having an instant/sorcery on the battlefield for as long as it takes to check SBAs is a problem. Any more than having an unattached Aura on the battlefield is a problem, or having an Equipment attached to something that's no longer a creature, or indeed having duplicate Legends. That's precisely the kind of tidying up that SBAs are meant for, and I think they solve the corner case of Humility pretty completely.
Stifle/Voidslime really shouldn't be an issue. Whatever ability is casting spellmorph has to only turn the card face-up at the moment it's about to be put on the stack. Either if you Stifle the spellmorph ability the creature doesn't get turned face up at all, or it's a "special action" like morph itself which can be done at faster-than-split-second speed, just like Willbender and friends.
So I think a variation on your wording would be fine:
> Spellmorph
(You may cast this face down as a 2/2 creature for 
. You may cast it from the battlefield for its spellmorph cost. If it turns face up any other way, put it in your graveyard.)
That said, if you're really against the SBA to tidy up battlefield instants, then yes, I think your "It can't be turned face up" wording is okay. You'd have to indicate when you cast one whether the card being morphed was a morph or a spellmorph, which is a little bit of a pity.
But I don't think it's worth nerfing a mechanic for interactions with two old corner-case cards (Break Open and Ixidor, Reality Sculptor). If things go a little bit weird with those, but otherwise work fine, I don't think that's a big problem.
You could always put Level Up on enchantments (or other non-creatures), with a trigger to level instead of mana cost.
I think you could argue for either; creatures going on quests would be represented somewhat differently I would think (think either Level Up or exile then return with counters on it). I think this is more geared towards quests which you the planeswalker are on.
Edit: Of course there's the Ordeal cycle as well, as pointed out above.
not just ascensions!
Good point - are these quests you go on, or that your creatures go on?
Which reminds me, were MaRo involved in this set, he'd be shouting at us about now for not deciding on the emotional intent :)
I think that's a fine variation on tribal - and very naturally gives you "This colour favours it, but there's some overlap" without being "Yeah, but blue goblins? really?"
Also much easier to slip into a set without having to make huge numbers of vanilla-ish creatures to support it, or risk being overly parasitic.
Still, we'd want to give some kind of strong identities to the flying, the hasty, the striking, the vigilant, um... ok, I just hit another problem. How many keywords are actually common enough to warrant a tribe? how many can we fit in a set?
FWIW, I really liked the design of Ordeal of Nylea cycle, which are quests thematically, even though they're not called that like in Zendikar.
I like that they do something as they go along, but winning is still exciting. Is there any way of doing a simpler version of that that could work at common, or another variant that has the "quest" theme, but isn't exactly the same as the zendicar block quests?
No - I mean.. the quest is trying to unmorph the card.
So It's something like: "morph: gain 5 life in a single turn" (good thing or just a stompy creature)
Are they sufficiently questlike? Maybe not. They do have the advantage of tying a couple of major themes together though.
Or as not-morphs, just plain: "When you gain 5 life in a turn, you may sacrifice ~. If you do (good thing)"
Less questy (being only a single stage) but far fewer words, so that they can live at common, and be a part of a creature or another spell.
Another alternative - level up creatures; where levelling them up is a quest-challenge, rather than a mana cost.
The main issue with Spellmorph and the Comprehensive Rules is that that having an Instant or Sorcery card on the battlefield at any time is an utter no-no. With all interpretations I've seen of the ability, cards like Humility and Sudden Spoiling combined with something like Break Open really screw it up, as do things like Stifle and Voidslime.
I wonder if something like this might work:
Spellmorph
(You may cast this face down as a creature for 
. It can't be turned face up. You may cast it from the battlefield for its spellmorph cost.)
Break Open probably still causes issues with this as it would with other versions of Spellmorph, though slightly different ones.
I've no strong preference either way.
I think it's a good idea -- I think it's obvious what's SUPPOSED to happen in essentially all cases, so I've faith the comprehensive rules can be fixed up, and I don't think that's a reason not to do it.
But I don't mind if we end up using morph in this set.
Seems pretty clear that we can get it to work if we want it:
to cast ~ as a face down card, making it a 2/2 morph creature. Then, you have the ability to reveal ~, pay x to cast it"
Just make:
Spellmorph x
Mean "Instead of casting ~ as normal, you may pay
(Arguments as to 'cast' and 'play' can be had; but 99% of the time won't matter, chose whichever makes it most like creature-morph)
Alternately; you could just avoid the issue and have normal morphs that have "When ~ is turned face up..." effects. If you really like, have a cycle of 0/0 creatures with that.
Putting things on the stack without casting them doesn't work, because it's during the action of casting that you select targets and modes and such.
Even if it can be made to work, there are just way too many in-depth rules issues that I don't want to deal with. I would rather just not do Spellmorph at all.
I feel like the right way is that the comp rules say "when you turn an instant or sorcery face up, its owner puts it onto the stack, if they don't, they put it into their graveyard" so it all happens as part of the "turn face up" action, and isn't an ability that other game effects can mess with.
To me, that feels the right principle.
But I don't know if there's anything that still breaks it?
(It would also be possible to have enchantments with sacrifice effects instead of sorceries. I'm not sure if that's better or worse.)
Morph as the combination? What do you mean? That when you fulfill a Quest you get to morph something for free? Sounds like a single card idea, not something we'd want to warp the mechanic around.
I think some Quests that only get a single quest counter and remove that single counter without sacrificing might be interesting, but then they don't feel much like Quests, do they?
I made Discussion: Rules of spellmorph, can we move the conversation there? (I'm not sure if we want it or not, but "whether it works in the rules" is a conversation it's reasonable to have.)
I dunno; proposing a bit of flavour as you propose mechanics helps cement them a bit, I think.
But it did get voted on as bottom up. So concentrating mainly on mechanics first is sorta obligated. Still, having decided that this is the "Questy morphy tribal set, with hybrid control traps in it" (bit of a mouthful, that) maybe a bit of tuning flavourwise is needed :)