"Bottom-up" means the set as a whole is driven by a mechanical idea.

So I'd say we should throw around ideas for what kind of mechanical identity we want the whole set to be.

Suggestions so far, including other ideas proposed for the first community set and lots from the thread below:

• Tribal block (Onslaught, Lorwyn)
• Wedge multicolour block (everyone's waiting for one)
• Colour-pairs multicolour block (Ravnica)
• Exile-matters block
• Hybrid (Shadowmoor)
• Colour-matters (Invasion, Shadowmoor)
• Artifact block (Antiquities, Mirrodin, Scars of Mirrodin)
• Enchantment block (one of Theros's major mechanical themes though Theros is ostensibly a top-down block)

• DFC-focused block (Mirroria)

• "color-hate set"

• "your hand and/or library vs. in play"

• "spells vs. creatures"

• Hybrid vs. Monocolor (Can play out differently than true multicolor)

• Lands matter (Zendikar did it, of course)
• "Keyword tribal" block (Things that care about flying, vigilance, etc.)
• Instants/Sorceries Matter
• Command Zone Matters (The command zone exists in every game. Why not see what we can do with it outside of commander?)
• Monocolor Matters
• "Quests" Matter (Could fuse with Enchantment block- lots of Zendikar-esque quests, maybe with Arthurian flavor)

• Allied Colors vs. Enemy Colors

• Luck Counters/Victory Counters: The opposite of Poison. You win when you get 10. Could be part of Quests Matter.

• "Colorless matters," were we introduce spells that can only be cast with colorless mana and treat colorless as a "new" color

• +1/+1 or -1/-1 counters matter could probably be a theme, though likely it would go with another theme

• Planeswalkers matter

• Legends matter
• New card type (e.g. Plane, Terrain, Automobile)
• Alternate color pie (cf. Planar Chaos)
• Unbalanced colors (cf. Torment/Judgment, So Ling) ++ Missing color, e.g Anhydria
• Tapped/Untapped matters

• Activated abilities vs. not/ abilities matter

• Different mechanical themes for each colour, or colour-pair, etc. E.g. Sienira's Facets has different colour-pairs caring about different card types; the first Community Set has a different mechanical identity for each mono colour; and several sets in Magic's early history worked this way.

• Tokens matter,
• Enchantments matter,
• Iconics matter (sphinxes, dragons, demons, angels, hydras)
• Control matters (e.g. Gift)
• conflict between laziness and activity (details)
• Other card types turning into creatures

Of course, mechanics that will have a wide impact on the whole block are fair game for discussion at this stage. Possibilities:

• morph
• flickering
• Gift

The other thing to say is that sets can and do have multiple focuses. Theros is top-down Greek mythology but also bottom-up enchantments-matter. Shadowmoor was hybrid-focus and colour-matters (and top-down "dark mirror"). Onslaught was morph-focused and also tribal. So perhaps we ought to vote for mechanical themes and then see how many of the top 3 or 4 vote-getters we can combine into one set.

Ok, reasonable. I've refocused things.

As Alex said, you're skipping a step. Here's some other ideas:

• Hybrid vs. Monocolor (Can play out differently than true multicolor)
• Lands matter (Zendikar did it, of course)
• "Keyword tribal" block (Things that care about flying, vigilance, etc.)
• Instants/Sorceries Matter
• Command Zone Matters (The command zone exists in every game. Why not see what we can do with it outside of commander?)
• Monocolor Matters
• "Quests" Matter (Could fuse with Enchantment block- lots of Zendikar-esque quests, maybe with Arthurian flavor)
• Allied Colors vs. Enemy Colors

I'll be back again with more, probably.

Ooh, I like "quests matter". Like Eldrazi, but instead of building up to casting one giant spell, you play one cheap spell, but play to hold off until it "goes off". Except, maybe, Zendikar/Eldrazi already did that.

A few more options:

• Luck Counters/Victory Counters: The opposite of Poison. You win when you get 10. Could be part of Quests Matter.
• "Colorless matters," were we introduce spells that can only be cast with colorless mana and treat colorless as a "new" color
• +1/+1 or -1/-1 counters matter could probably be a theme, though likely it would go with another theme

More ideas:

• Planeswalkers matter
• Legends matter
• New card type (e.g. Plane, Terrain, Automobile)
• Alternate color pie (cf. Planar Chaos)
• Unbalanced colors (cf. Torment/Judgment, So Ling)

And more:

• Tapped/Untapped matters
• Activated abilities vs. not/ abilities matter
• Missing color

/me giggles greatly at "Plane, Terrain, Automobile" :)

I guess another mechanical approach is:

• Different mechanical themes for each colour, or colour-pair, etc. E.g. Sienira's Facets has different colour-pairs caring about different card types; the first Community Set has a different mechanical identity for each mono colour; and several sets in Magic's early history worked this way.

How about...

Tokens matter, Enchantments matter, Iconics matter (sphinxes, dragons, demons, angels, hydras)

I like the idea of a legends block, that gets a vote from me. (Sorry, don't know how to add those fancy bullets)

How about control matters. Gift for example. (Didn't see the challenge had changed)

I like: ­

­
1. Control Matters (It might have issues at common though)
­
2. Quest Matters
­
3. Some degree of multicolour; not necessarily wedges
­

I don't like: ­

­
• Legends Matter (I don't fancy trying to fix Kamigawa)
­
• Luck counters (because Proliferate)
­

I like control-matters (Zedruu the Greathearted!) and a quest theme too.

I also quite like tapped/untapped matters, a new card type (though the design challenge on those proved that's really, really hard to do well), and any of the themes which involve hybrid mana as a significant part.

As intrigued as I am by "control matters," I'm not convinced it would be a good thing around which to build a block. It might make a good secondary theme, or a single faction theme, but I'm inclined to vote against it.
I really like the Iconics Matter idea. I just feel bad for green because I feel that its current iconic, Hydras, needs to be revised. I see several votes for Quest Matters, which is nice because I came up with it, but I'm not actually convinced it's the best idea. If we do it, I'd like to fuse it with Enchantments Matter, Equipment Matters, and, if I can convince enough people, Victory Counters.

Cmeister, might I suggest that you give us until the 28th to suggest themes, at which point we'll have two or three days to submit 3 official votes for themes we like and 3 official votes against themes we'd rather not see?

Alex, can I ask you to edit all of the suggestions into a nice list at the top of this page? That would be very helpful.

Motion approved :) ok, no more mechanical themes to be suggested after the 28th. We already have a large number above!

I also don't think we could build an entire block around control matters, but yes, it could definitely work as a faction's theme.

I also like luck+quests -- I think we could solve the proliferate problem.

It feels like a set about iconics would be more top-down than bottom-up, but I'm intrigued what would go in it.

Thought of another one: Lazy. Anti-vigilance. "Does not untap as normal." (Though that's a mechanic, not a theme)

But a conflict between laziness and activity could be a fun thing to try. Red and blue is mostly active, white about half and half; green and black as the laziest colours. Lazy colours tend to be more interested in not putting out effort, in letting things come to them, in enjoying what they have. Active is more about going out and grasping, and forcing things to be where they don't want to go.

Pasted all the suggestions into the top post. That's a lot of ideas :)

Almost sorry to mention it, but there's always the "creature-less block".

I think not having creatures is a bad idea, but maybe a "other permanent types turn into creatures" block?

no creatures made me think/ramble. there are creatures, but they come with other types, particularly artifacts and enchantments. then we can have artifacts vs enchantments. living weapons vs bestow. probably manlands or land creatures as well. instant and sorcery can make creature tokens. even bolder, can we morph these spells so that they get cast when turned face-up?

Spellmorph can be done, yes. I like the idea of spellmorph, and I'm pretty confident the rules can be made to work.

I'm pretty against Spellmorph because of how many times I've seen it said that it can't possibly work. I'm also not in favor of a "creatureless" block, or a block with no cards that are "just" creatures.

Spellmorph do work with just a single addition to the rules. (I've read every argument against it. Fact is, the comp rules do not rule it out. they just haven't spelled out what happens in such a situation. that's why we add a rule to explain exactly what happens when the situation comes up.)

i guess another factor in choosing the ideas is how bold you want to go. do you want to try something original, or do you just want to rehash (over)used ideas? both ways have pros and cons. or maybe meet somewhere in the middle.

What ideas do you consider "overused?"

This is one of the challenges of a group designed set. Some of us have seen literally scores of custom sets and thousands of custom cards; others will be pretty new to custom set design. What's new and innovative to one person will be old hat to another (and implausibly confusing to a third).

Come to think of it, I quite like the idea of normal tribal (with some twist, I think bleeding colours like Lorwyn is a good idea).

To add to the pile of ideas: ­

• Particular (new) creature type matters (parasitic much? :))

It could also be a format-centered block. For example, a commander set, a planechase set, a two-headed dragon set, a set built around drafting, etc.

You mean like a set that's split into multiple decks, like the annual multiplayer product? That's an interesting idea. It leaves us with far, far fewer cards to design, but a lot of deckbuilding and reprint discussion to do.

Non-standard format cards wouldn't have to be released as decks, but that could actually be a really interesting idea. It could be easier to design something that's immediately fun to play, rather than try and design a set which lends itself to fun decks after people have tried as hard as they can to break it during deckbuilding.

Well, it's after the 28th, so we're done submitting ideas and it's time for everybody to say which three mechanical bases they'd like to do most and which they want to do least.

Three I'd Like to See:

1. Quests
2. Enchantments Matter
3. Keyword Tribal

Honorable mention to Wedge.

Three I'd Like Not to See

1. Planeswalkers Matter
2. Alternate Color Pie
3. Control Matters

(From above)

Three I'd like to see: ­

­
1. Control Matters
­
2. Quests Matter
­
3. Some degree of multicolour; not necessarily wedges
­

Things I'd like not to see: ­

­
1. Legends Matter
­
2. Victory/Luck counters
­

Out of curiosity, why are you against Victory Counters, cmeister2? I thought they'd be a nice play on how much people like achievements in video games.

I personally don't think the game needs another type of counter specifically to track winning the game. The game's managed with filibuster counters, luck counters, charge counters, and tower counters - having Yet Another Life Total to track would get tedious.

­Things I'd like to see

1. Quests
2. Luck counters
3. Some variant of tribal (colour bleed characteristic tribes; iconics matter; keyword tribal; colour tribal; etc)

­Things I'd not like to see

1. New card type (I love the idea, but not without a specific suggestion for a type that would work.)
2. Control matters as a major block theme (I think it would just be too complicated; I'd like to see it as a minor theme.)
3. Enchantments/artifacts matter (perfectly OK, but we've seen them a lot recently in mainstream magic.)

I'd note that although the block can only have a couple of major themes, many of the things that get positive upvotes could be included as minor themes.

Things I'd like to see as a major theme:

• Quests
• Morph / spellmorph
• Hybrid

Things I'd like to see as minor themes:

• Tapped / untapped matters
• Morph / spellmorph
• Control matters

Things I don't want to see:

• Creatureless block
• Planeswalkers matter
• Alternate colour pie

I'm not so keen on victory counters because most approaches to them would be very uninteractive. If you don't have to interact with the opponent's life total at all, then you make their blockers, fog effects, lifegain, tappers and so on, all irrelevant. (And you risk even making their creature removal irrelevant.) The cards would have to be quests that involve the opponent somehow, but at that point, it's going to be hard to balance them to be easier than dealing 20 damage but not overpowered when played in casual games against other blocks' decks. It might be possible, but it sounds pretty hard.

Alright, I'm convinced that Victory Counters can fall by the wayside.

Major themes I'd like:

• Tribal creatures, 5 major races and 5 major classes, each with unique keyword or mechanic
• Morph (and possibly minor theme on typeless, tribeless creatures), including Spellmorph and noncreature morphs
• Traps (sometimes in the form of Spellmorph)

Things I don't want to see:

• Multicolor in the style of guild, shard, or wedge (but multicolor tribal cards are fine, see 1st point in major themes I'd like, where focus is on tribe, not color. for instance, Lorwyn Elf defined G/B cards, not vice versa.)
• DFC
• Landfall

Well, it's Tuesday. I'll collate the results later.

I'm a bit worried about Spellmorph after seeing this thread: mtgsalvation

actually that thread made me more confident that spellmorph could work because it's filling in a rule that is undefined as of yet. that thread is like people arguing about two-sided cards before Innistrad.

How do you deal with a morphed instant when Humility is on the battlefield, and something forces it to flip? It would flip face up and then just be an instant on the battlefield because whatever effect you used to Spellmorph it would not exist as you flipped it.

There are several options.

• You could rule that an instant/sorcery that somehow ends up on the battlefield without being cast is simply immediately put into its owner's graveyard as an SBA. Like what was done with the Clone-Dryad Arbor-Worms of the Earth ruling. I'd actually assume that this would be a rule we'd be adding anyway, so that we can have spellmorph mana costs and still allow Break Open etc to work on spellmorphs when their controller is tapped out.
• Alternatively, you could perhaps try to twiddle the rules such that however spellmorph works isn't an ability that gets removed. I'd need to look into this possibility a bit further.

I made Discussion: Rules of spellmorph, can we move the conversation there? (I'm not sure if we want it or not, but "whether it works in the rules" is a conversation it's reasonable to have.)