[Theory] Color Pie Discussion: Recent Activity
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Recent updates to [Theory] Color Pie Discussion: (Generated at 2024-05-04 06:33:42)
See Colorless Spells: Their role, as well as Scour from Existence/Universal Solvent/Unstable Obelisk/Spine of Ish Sah etc, and of course Vindicate/Utter End/Necrotic Sliver/Ashen Rider etc.
Is this acceptable? gets to do this. Colourless gets to do this for 7 mana. I stated over at Colorless Spells: Their role that green definitely shouldn't get to do this, and this would be a pie-break at .
More precisely, I believe this would be clearly fine at ; and clearly fine at . Is it fine at ? Because the thing is, the card is still white-black even if you're using it in a mono-white or mono-black deck and paying or for it. Green can play Flame Javelin and Beseech the Queen for 6 mana, and Scour from Existence for seven. (Also remember the colours can use their own tools to get access to off-colour effects. Black can discard a Ashen Rider then reanimate it; white can discard a Necrotic Sliver then reanimate it.)
What do others think?
I agree with SecretInfiltrator. More explicitly:
I'm afraid I really rather disagree with most of Tahazzar's statements in this whole set. But just picking up on this one part:
"a color has an effect that can be mimicked if one of its allies and of its enemies are combined. Isn't that nonsensical?"
Not at all. Really, this argument can't work. For one thing, there's the entire Peculiar Distortion family. They demonstrate that many colours have effects that can be combined to generate effects from another colour. Peculiar Infiltration shows that two red effects combine to make a blue effect: is that nonsensical? Peculiar Savagery and Peculiar Righteousness show that you can combine two white effects or two green effects to produce a black effect: is that nonsensical? No, it's just the way the colour pie works. Green is allowed to have cards that interact with creatures, including at instant speed. Put enough of them together, you can end up with something that'll pretty much kill a creature. But it's not a green effect to do it "all at once".
You seem to be really over-attached to the idea of the colour alliances and enmities. Those alliances and enmities inform the philosophy of the colours a great deal, but they don't have much mechanical impact. A game where the colour alliances are strongly reflected in mechanical overlap would be interesting, but it's definitely not current Magic design.
If you're wanting to make a big proposal to re-examine all of the colour pie to re-emphasise the ally and enemy relationships, then make that big proposal; don't tiptoe up to it with things like this that are hard to justify unless you're making big sweeping changes.
I find this conversation hard to follow. Is it OK if we rename this card from "temporal life" (which means "life to do with time") and call it "temporary life" instead?
I agree this mechanic doesn't have very much place in modern design because it doesn't contribute towards ending the game.
This sort of works. Except I feel like, as I said over at Jor Kadeen's Emissary, "I don't want you to be able to drain life for or : it's either or , okay?"
One-off mana fixing feels super-red, if anything I thought it was already red. Extending that to repeated washing also seems plausible, it gives red an extra form of mana fixing without taking away from green (which can usually produce extra mana).
I agree with both thoughts, that this ability feels at home in black pie-wise, but it's hard to make it mechanically meaningful without being too combo-focused.
If it was, you don't lose the game until you have three less life than you otherwise would, would that work any better? I remember that being suggested, although I'm not sure it improves the situation much.
I like most of these shifts, thank you for discussing them.
I'm not seeing this one. It just doesn't feel unique enough, since it wouldn't feel very out of place in G or W. I wouldn't be opposed to a niche lifegain ability that did feel blue but I can't think of one.
Oh, yes, my error. I was looking at the conversation and not the bullet list.
Well yes; this has previously been a thing blue has done a couple of times. That seems to be a common thread of these proposals, actually.
Tahazzar mentioned them above.
I didn't see anyone else reference these two cards, but I thought it might be important to recognize Illusions of Grandeur and Delusions of Mediocrity.
I can see this as something black could do on a one-of rare or mythic rare, but I don't see it appearing at all below those rarities.
Regarding your comments about Sanguine Helix:
• "We've been taught this is okay. Flavor trumps all." Ignoring that the entire structure of the color pie is arbitrary, this effect is entirely in black's mechanical color pie. It's been that way for a long time, so if course it's okay. It's not even a flavor thing.
• What do you mean by saying that is an acceptable color for the spell but isn't?
• I think you're way too stuck on the fact that colors are "allies" and "enemies." We still use these terms because of where the colors are placed on the pentagram, but really, they aren't that literal anymore. Each color has something in common with each other color and each color somehow opposes each other color.
I don't foresee you finding an ally in your argument for life gain in blue, because 1) blue would not benefit from it, 2) the game would not be better for it, and 3) it just doesn't feel right.
I don't know if I think this belongs in white, but something you said on this set inspired Recovery Specialist
I can see this being in black's pie. I also see it as incredibly hard to balance. It's either free life; or it's just nothing.
Added three examples to OP:
I would call this a more dynamic form of lifegain. Where as might give you "freely", expects something in return - such as its own survival.
I didn't mention Manamorphose since rituals are pretty much defined by them being accel. I would call morphose just "filtering" spell.
> generally all colors should have access to a flavor of this
I'm not sure what you mean. What would and flavor for this be? Also, I've been thinking that transforming land types should be instead of - used as an alternative to LD for example. The rare occasions when has used that ability, it hasn't yielded great results...
You seem to miss the point. I don't disagree on the flavor axis. I'm entirely fine on the flavor axis.
It's just that the gameplay does not hold up. Gameplay determines whether a mechanic should exist.
Soul Scourge is a better mechanic since it can be used to end the game. I'm not sure how much design space there is in it though. I feel while it worked as part of a greater theme where Nightmares could steal conceptually really different things like life, cards and permanents, there is probably not enough design space in just the life aspect.
Note also that the other aspects have since shifted towards (partially) towards white.
Manamorphose is an example (as hybrid means it must match red's mechanical color pie) and probably was on the author's mind as something they have just done in the past year and liked enough to think about using more. In reality they might not have followed up on their plan, but that's always possible.
To re-formulate my position: I don't think red needs to be especially good at color fixing but generally all colors should have access to a flavor of this e. g. blue plays around with transforming land types for this, red gets it as part of their one-time mana creation etc.
This effect in isn't that common in the current color pie. If anything, this topic exists as a testament as to how controversial it still is. Though maybe you misunderstood those precedent cards as examples: this would give Helionauts.
I can't even found any official word on having a greater access at mana filtering. Best I can find is this 2009 article "Mana with All the Fixin's" stating that
> Red's trick in multicolor blocks is to allow its rituals to add colors other than red.
which is a bit weird considering that Mardu Warshrieker is the only example I can think of and it was printed much later on.
I don't see how giving red access to what it already has access to is expanding its pie.
To delineate it: What card would red not get? Exuberant Firestoker?
Ah, yes, I recalled that card, but couldn't find it. Now added to "examples" section.
Wow, that came of as quite spiteful.
It's quite flavorful ability and fits into 's theme of false promises - ie. Demonic Pact. Liliana especially is a good example of this with her eternal youth that she lost temporally when her deal wore of or whatever.
Basically a demon keeps you alive and it makes itself necessary for your existence (addiction).
This could also be turned the other way around ala nightmares like Soul Scourge.
See Souldrain. It contains also a link to the thread where different colorshifts of counterspells are discussed superficially.
You know why there are so few examples of this ability in the game despite the fact that some prolific designs with it came up early on? Because it sucks. It's either exploited or not worth the card text.
I don't understand the premise.
@SecretInfiltrator
> Pure fixing seems not to represent red's MO.
Could you expand on that? These kind of comments are pretty hard to comment on. From flavor standpoint, this would allow more creative elements (ie. artists, poets, personal love, freedom, passion, expressing emotions, richness of passion vs censorship, etc) to be conveyed mechanically in . Currently flavor has a tendency be very one-noted.
@Mal
> I actually prefer "convert other colors to " in more than "convert other colors to "
You stated the same thing twice. I assume you meant preferring turning other colors to rather than turning to other colors. Eh, turning other colors to your color feels overly conservative (with hints of xenophobic and ethnic purge) to me, and I would allocate that to .