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Recent updates to Soradyne Laboratories: (Generated at 2025-07-07 05:19:00)
The cardname and the name in the textbox don't match.
Reworked to better mesh with both "swarm" and "nihilist" factions. Dropped to common.
For some reason I thought Industrial Sabotage was common. I think I'm just used to Demolish.
These are all some really good points. The o Lu one I can really push back on at all is #2; unless I've really overlooked something, there's only one common red LD card. Otherwise, I think the call to effectively swap the pinger for a lightning elemental is one of the best "how'd I miss that?" catches yet.
I'll take a few more looks from this new angle and see what I can do.
As the mythos of the set isn't currently burbling and bubbling inside my brain, I can only address the mechanical concepts at issue here. Right now I see six commons in R/G that support a swarming approach to feint, with the majority in red:
Of the creatures, the Salamander and Lashvine offer the greatest opportunity to sneak by opposing forces for one reason or another, with the Glaivemaster's dependency being somewhat problematic on a glorified Grizzly Bear.
I think that if you really want to make a go at defining R/G as you've conceptualized, you're going to need to provide it with the common tools that can properly fight the strong defense and control mechanics that I'm seeing in White and Blue. An early non-feint creature with 3+ power would go a long way, as well as a less-conditional anti-blocking measure, as Intimidate might not be as useful in that regard in a multicolor set.
A couple suggested tweaks to the skeleton:
Remove the trample clause from (((Crackling Hellion))) and drop it to
, switching it with (((Veteran Blastmage))). Pingers aren't common anymore anyways.
Push (((Tectonic Collapse))) elsewhere and devise something appropriate. Two common LD in red seems unnecessary.
Related to that, Green could use a anti-noncreature permanent card at common. Think Mold Shambler.
Spice up Pendarvian Scout. Maybe
, Sac: Target creature is a Prized Unicorn?
Keep in mind that Rally Instigator isn't an actual two-drop, as everyone will want to save it so they can ramp off it.
Picking up where M_Houlding and I left off yesterday:
I think I'd lost sight of and thereby failed to address where the G/R faction fits in the story. It's pretty likely that this oversight is going to make a difference in the thematic structure of Feint.
The G/R aggros aren't about strong, organized military force. They're irritated civilians pushing for answers that they feel are being withheld. Each faction has a Mythic figurehead; the aggro faction's adopted leader is a fiercely persistent newspaper reporter. Serix Thames and his readers/fans are a force of social momentum, stirring up trouble for and putting pressure on the societal and cultural structures that enable the parties responsible for recent events to stay hidden.
Mechanically speaking, the connection between the G/R aggro build and Feint was never meant to be a direct one (all colors have at least one Feint card). The aggros should however be able to make the most and best use of it. So far, my execution of that has been to provide several small, efficient creatures — 1- and 2-drops — to the group followed by acceleration to drop larger creatures and boosters quickly. By getting more creatures out in the early turns than an opponent can, it should allow a G/R player to force through an unblocked attacker, thereby getting those windows for Feint.
These aggressive pushes can have high casualties though, so I feel that it's important to let Feint function as an accelerant in and of itself. Should Feint impact combat? Sure, whenever possible, but it's not the only way to use it. From the beginning, I've wanted Feint to help set up the next turn. If this means that there's short term loss (failure to deal 1 or 2 damage to an opponent) in exchange for getting a sizable advantage in board position, then that fits the faction in my eyes.
That's where cards like ItW and even Mossback Gargantula fit in. These are cards that a swarm attack can consistently put on the board much faster than other strategies can. The G/R force isn't one of precision military actions, it's one of disenfrachised people standing up and gaining momentum. They're people that want answers following the Day of Silence (key story element) and suspect that their government isn't being completely forthcoming with them. They want to gain ground, build resources, and show a groundswell of support backing their agenda. Now, can a big-ass spider read a newspaper or demand answers from municipal and corporate leaders? No, but it'll get people to listen to you.
In this regard, looking at G/R as a largely civilian grassroots campaign of stirring up civil unrest, I feel it's fair to have some less-than-combat-focused Feint spells, as long as they all serve the purpose of gaining notable momentum.
(The conversation was originally on CA07 Rotoskate.)
"Moving" this conversation over here where it's way more relevant...
Sadly, all I have to say in restarting here is that I'm going to have to sleep on this one. Houlding's made some really good points, and combined with a lot of points Bombshell's made about the aggro-balancing nature of the mechanic, I think I need to find a little more identity for the R/G faction.
I can't stand it. I know you're playing it.
I'mma set it straight, This Watergate.
If you perceive a dire weakness in this faction, it feels like you've tried to correct it as conservatively as possible and added feint as a reassuring gesture. If the group needs Rampant Growth, why not give them Rampant Growth? (Or better yet instant-speed rampant growth for
!)
Because I'm not looking to fix my mana if I have both my colors, and the untapped clause really doesn't matter that often, though maybe it does assuming a particular density in 2 drops. Yet if I'm supposed to be swarm/aggro, why am I removing my attackers from combat in order to get a late game mana advantage?
All that said, I'm not the one playtesting, so I'm really just trying to present a different perspective and hope that it helps you.
Some of this is going to sound stupidly obvious, but bear with me.
Into The Wilderness serves what I feel is a notable role in the set. There's not a ton of color fixing or true land acceleration (the Way Stations don't really accelerate). ItW grabs two land at once and delivers them untapped, not quite the way Harrow does, but similar. The trade-off is that without a land sacrifice (Harrow), the cost needs to be higher. Feint allows the spell to be played a few turns earlier for a short stutter in your attack tempo.
Within the set I've got nine different "factions", or mechanically/thematically linked groups (not unlike a more densely packed Ravnica). The green/red overlap is — admittedly the weakest theme of the bunch — a swarm/aggro tempo game. ItW was designed to fuel this one specific faction better than others. Mechanically, the group really, REALLY wants this card; it kicks the whole faction into overdrive in ways the other groups just can't match.
So in the long run, I feel like it's more important to find a way to make this particular card work than many of the others. I could rework nearly all of the others to make them more "combat relevant", but this one just needs to exist for the sake of the faction.
Right, it's definitely more about applying the proper veneer than anything else. For instance, Volunteer Lancers doesn't strike the appropriate tone to my ears, but a little polish and...
Debronian Deserter
Creature - Human Rebel
First Strike
Feint
3/1
That tells a significantly more resonant story that connects with the mechanical identity. Of course, it's probably not appropriate to introduce off-color feints in the first set, but I thought it would demonstrate the point.
But be aware that with Into the Wilderness most of the logical naming shifts will read more like Annex or Shifting Borders. And without Landfall (or an equivalent), I really don't see a good reason to insert that sort of effect as a combat-trick.
It seems to me that a lot of these issues might be solved with surface adjustments. I feel Ike if we changed "Into the Wilderness" into "Claim Jump" or "Stake Territory" (something that evokes a more aggressive taking of resources), it wouldn't look so out-of-place.
I'll scan through and see what I can do...
And by the way, all this feedback and collaboration is great. Thank you!
Looks like you were all discussing this while I was off on holiday :) but I agree the place you've ended up is a much better implementation of Feint, both for simplicity and actually working in the rules. Good job, and great testament to distributed development!
Personally, I think the ability and its name are excellent, as it does a great job of providing substantial meaning in context while still being broadly applicable to any card type or set flavor. I would desperately fight a creative move away from "Feint", especially since it's also a very concise word.
At the moment, of your 10 Feint cards, I would consider the following to be successful in flavor and execution:
(((Garrotte))) (((Extricate))) (((Firebomb))) (((Pendarvian Bloodhounds)))
Each cleanly conveys a tactical maneuver or the summoning of a creature type that has some logical connection to the battlefield/sleuthing. (((Ruinous Riot))) loses points on name, as the effect in the world you've built seems more like it'd be industrial sabotage, or something to that effect.
In the next tier you have:
Mossback Gargantula (((Volunteer Lancers))) Rotoskate Waves of Madness
These represent iffy flavor and/or functions that might not live up to expectations, like how Alex points out that Rotoskate can't immediately impact the combat it appears in. Feint might be better suited to combining with Virtual Vanillas, something like a blue wizards that lets you look at your opponent's hand on ETB, rather than just putting it on miscellaneous limited beef like the Mossback. Even though Feint started out as a cost-reduction mechanism and surprise! device, designs like Mossback are actually only taking advantage of the cost-reduction.
In the last tier you have Into the Wilderness. The flavor is just off, and ramping mid-combat is somewhat impractical as it requires you to stop and shuffle a bunch right before the damage step.
Rotoskate's ability aside, I made it a creature simply to help supplement the creature count among the commons. Things seemed thin, so there it was.
As far as the flavor of Feint goes...
I get that it can be weird for a creature to make you think he's coming for you, and then he veers off and gathers some wood. I'm not exactly sure how to resolve that disconnect beyond perhaps simply finding a better name for the ability. I think the ability itself is a good one that encourages rich combat scenarios and blocking decisions, and we did a hell of a job yesterday debugging it. The last thing I want to do is drop it for flavor reasons.
My initial intent was to create the sense that you were using a creature to sneak a spell past the opposing line. Some of that still works, but even there, it has flavor issues. Many of the red and green "characters" in the story are motivated by finding answers and the truth behind mysterious recent events. To play to deception isn't necessarily their first inclination, and yet the ability really benefits a tempo game the most, something that red and green do well.
So, yeah, it's something that Dan and I have discussed before, and that we usually win up setting aside to allow us to focus on filling in other pieces of the puzzle.
You put in some awesome work on fixing the mechanics of it; if you've got any thoughts on resolving the aesthetics, I'm all ears.
Could this be better served as a noncreature artifact? Maybe as a Cyclopean Snare variant?
It looks good (and pleasantly simple), but the flavor of feint feels weakened by tying it to things that aren't explicitly related to deceptive combat tactics. For every (((Extricate))) you have an Into the Wilderness that's really distorting the power of the word, leading to thoughts of "A-ha! You thought I was going to invade your city! Alas, instead I have taken a left turn and am current enjoying the benefits of my coal and lumber enterprise over yonder."
Flavor doesn't make or break a design at this stage, but it can lead to more resonant constructions.
RE: Feint text - According to the Ninjutsu text (Higure, the Still Wind), "unblocked attacking creature" can be shortened to "unblocked attacker".
Hmm. True... but only during your attack, so it's not possible to surprise an opponent after they've declared attackers. I think I misread feint and thought you could do it before blockers... This might lead to a number of "I wish it worked differently" moments, then.