Tahazzar, it's rude to edit cardsets you weren't invited to edit. Commenting is fine because nothing's actually destroyed.

This card now operates completely differently to the intended use of the card previous. If I hadn't caught the edit, who knows how long this card would have been forever altered.

I appreciated the commenting a lot but please don't edit cards just because you can.

First off, nothing was actually destroyed since my edit log is quite comprehensive.

Second, the card functions pretty much the same as before, but now you may more easily see how it exactly works.

My first edit was to "Target spell ~ can't be the target of spells or abilities your opponents control", which would still be confusing as to whether or not it could be targeted by spells or abilities afterwards while it's a permanent, but I realized that "spell gains hexproof" does work (in a sense), but not probably as you might think, since hexproof is only "active" on permanents (see edits). It would be more along the lines of a design like "target creature spells gains 'When this ETBs, its controller sacrifices it."

I usually just do syntax fixes (it's irritating to look cards that are worded wrong), which I initially this too was, but it got a little more complicated. In hindsight, I should have just reversed the card back to its original form and asked what the actual intent was.

I was not aware that asking to edit was a convention here. I just thought "editable by anyone" sets are like open "card clinics."

Sorry? :S

... So what is the intent of this card?

Well I've actually talked to the designer of the site about this but the editable by anyone permissions is just because the admin and set permissions of the site right now are kinda screwy. You cannot pick and choose users to edit the cardset so when I had a handful of people working with me, the only way to allow them to do anything was to allow everyone to do everything.

The idea was that yeah, the spell can't be the target of spells or abilities your opponents control. So, it can't be countered but it also can't be commandeer'd, aethersnatch'd or even copied by insidious will.

You resolve this, and target spell WILL resolve.

Yeah, I was kinda wondering about that. I checked around the card set options and user profiles to see if there was a way to share admin privilages on sets. I guess not...

Making a card truly uncounterable is pretty hard. For example, Summary Dismissal would still take care of this although it's a pretty niche example.

In any case the problem with "target spell can't be the target of spells or abilities..." is that the ability would now be permanently on it (as far as I know), meaning it would have "hexproof" + it could not targeted while it was a spell... That's very unintuitive, even if it lasted only for a turn.

Here's an attempt at making a spell "uncounterable" although it's pretty dumb designwise since it uses terms that are pretty obscure to most players:

> As long as ~ is on the stack, players can’t cast other spells or activate abilities that aren’t mana abilities. (split second but without stating it specifically)

> Target spell resolves.

"Target spell resolves" is technically correct, but it might need a new rules entry to work correctly (which I would be okay with). If you google for "resolve target spell" (with quotes) you find pages relevant to this topic.

Is the intent "force this spell to resolve"? You could use split second wording, "While target spell is on the stack, players can't cast spells or activate abilities other than mana abilities".

If you wanted to be really sure, you could give the same ability to this spell while it's resolving ("or say 'when you cast ~ until target spell resolves..." or something), but that might well be overkill. (It would only be useful when your opponent is saving TWO counterspells, and if they're doing that maybe you're playing a combo deck that needs to be kept in check.)

In theory, there could be a permanent with an ability, "Add G to your mana pool. Exile all spells on the stack", but wizards haven't printed one and probably won't :)

Or say, "target spell can't be countered or exiled", but I think that would be confusing, wizards have avoided "can't be exiled".

Changed the wording. It's a shame the current Hexproof rulings don't have an application for spells being hexproof. I mean spells can have lifelink thanks to Soulfire Grandmaster so I don't see why they couldn't have hexproof.

If we were wizards (which for this set I'd prefer to pretend we are as part of the set's design philosophy) then I would modify the rulings for Hexproof as thus:

702.11e: Hexproof on a spell on the stack means “This spell can’t be the target of spells or abilities your opponents control.”

702.11f: Any spell with hexproof that produces a permanent does not provide hexproof to those permanents.

Personally I think making rules changes like this is fine, in this context, since it doesn't mess with anything that's already been printed.

Although, this card seems absurdly overcosted for what it does. Also, the word is spelled "council".

Mm. The casting cost was going to be my comment too. I don't think you can get away with (since this can be a counterspell itself) but should be more than enough. Insist and Overmaster may have been more narrow, but they also drew you a card.

I'm kinda scared of lowering the cost. This is kinda an un-counterable counterspell where the only downside is it can't stop an opponents play.

Currently quite a bit worse than Last Word conceptually I think.

Stopping an opponent's play is the most important thing a counterspell can do. Two mana gold is already pushing 'meh!' territory.

@ttt: Shrug So isn't an activation from Boseiju, Who Shelters All on the round you play it. This is Guttural Response with a three mana rider.

As far as I'm concerned, the effect is either a good idea, or it is a bad idea. If it is a good idea, you price it appropriately so it will see play. If it is a bad idea, you don't print it.

I don't get it, isn't that a bit pricey for what it does? Wouldn't it also be easier to use "Split Second" instead?

Counter target counterspell. Very limited, compared to, say, "Counter target Instant".
And costs more than that costs? (See Dispel).

Ok, so technically, it casts Dispel as often as needed to protect a single spell. And protects against, um Vodalian Mage. So maybe would be a reasonable cost for the effect.

Alright alright, lowered the mana cost.

Well; I guess every set needs a few extremely-niche cards.

Oh, the first line "Can't be countered" I seem to recall causes some rules templating problems. I think it needs " by spells or abilities." tacking on (making this conceptually simple card even wordier).

How about something like:
Neither ~ nor target spell can be countered by spells or abilities.

Or: Both ~ and target spell have protection from spells and abilities.

(Which covers, I dunno, Thoughtlace)

V: No, that's really not the way Wizards would template it. Instructions that modify how this spell work on the stack are always a separate ability to instructions that start happening once this spell starts resolving.

Well, ok; it can be two lines then. I thought the bold "cannot be countered" at all - was disallowed; was my main point.

The simplest way of wording this card would be to assume the rules change I suggested above. Then the card can just have Hexproof written on this card and grant the other spell hexproof as well.

The simple fix makes it very hard to distinguish a creature card with hexproof, without giving that spell hexproof too.

This card would be so much easier to template in a set with split second. Any chance?

@Izaac: The big problem with allowing hexproof to work on spells is that suddenly Drove of Elves, Bastion Inventor and so on become uncounterable, which was not at all the design intent.

(Well, uncounterable except by Summary Dismissal and Swift Silence, which is even more confusing.)

Oh yeah... hrmm that is troublesome. What about, "Resolve target spell (you control)"?

So what about:

"~ can't be the target of spells or abilities your opponents control.

Target spell you control can't be the target of spells or abilities your opponents control."

or the less extravagant:

"~ can't be countered by spells or abilities.

Target spell you control can't be countered by spells or abilities."

???

Can't be countered is great but doesn't stop unsubstantiate or commandeer