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CardName: Grezgl, Goblin Thief Cost: 2rr Type: Legendary Planeswalker - Grezgl Pow/Tgh: /4 Rules Text: [+2]: Discard a card, if you do, draw a card [+2]: Grezgl, Goblin Thief deals 2 damage to any target [-8]: Gain control of up to three target permanents an opponent controls until end of turn, untap them, they gain Haste Flavour Text: Set/Rarity: Lyrasia Mythic

Grezgl, Goblin Thief
Legendary Planeswalker – Grezgl
+2: Discard a card, if you do, draw a card
+2: Grezgl, Goblin Thief deals 2 damage to any target
-8: Gain control of up to three target permanents an opponent controls until end of turn, untap them, they gain Haste
Updated on 24 Aug 2018 by Froggychum

History: [-]

2017-09-05 00:39:04: Froggychum created the card Grezgl, Goblin Thief
2017-09-05 00:39:54: Froggychum edited Grezgl, Goblin Thief

Red usually gets the other form of looting (discard first)

The second part is an interesting Black Vise variation.

2017-09-05 15:08:48: Froggychum edited Grezgl, Goblin Thief

I like this.

2018-01-04 15:22:36: Froggychum edited Grezgl, Goblin Thief
2018-06-07 20:51:20: Froggychum edited Grezgl, Goblin Thief
2018-06-11 12:19:34: Froggychum edited Grezgl, Goblin Thief
2018-06-13 20:53:29: Froggychum edited Grezgl, Goblin Thief

That first loyalty ability is way too strong for a two-drop when you empty your hand each turn. It generates too much card advantage for a {r} card as well and for that, should be worded like in Daretti, Scrap Savant. This would still be very strong even if it costed {3}{r}. I hardly see a reason activate that second ability btw as I can't ever recall using it in Tibalt, the Fiend-Blooded either when I was experimenting with the card.

2018-06-15 12:52:47: Froggychum edited Grezgl, Goblin Thief

i see what you mean about the ultimate...

maybe i make it a -2

or make it twice X damage

or both?

because i like this mechanic, just dont know if it needs tweaking. i'd be sad to have to kick it, because i know it's something a goblin could do

It kinda doesn't matter what that second ability is; since you're only ever gonna use the first one.

Though it is odd that the second ability doesn't quite interact with the first one; maybe the first one could be:
"Discard two cards. If you do, target player draws two cards."

Which would seem to address both issues with one stone.

Come to think of it, why does this 'walker only have two abilities?

To make room for flavor text?

Now that someone pointed out Tibalt already I really start to feel this card doesn't add anything to the older card's formula.

Tibalt had a very subtle "Damned if you do, damned if you don't"-theme going on, but the ultimate was part of it and the chaos looting was just an assorted ability to gain loyalty.

Here the abilities are unfortunately unconnected and doesn't even add up to "Thief" all that well.

I miss Tibalt. He liked apples.

@secret i feel like the first one shows thievery, because of the LOOTING mechanic. Maybe this would be more your taste:

Discard up to two cards, target opponent discards those many cards

~ deals 5 damage to target player with no cards in hand?

would discard be able to take the flavor of thievery

2018-06-15 17:16:57: Froggychum edited Grezgl, Goblin Thief

Stealing usually is a two-effect process: One person loses something, another gains something.

Typical examples of cards that feel like you steal something: Steal Enchantment, Steal Strength, Goatnapper, Stolen Grain, Notion Thief.

Even a card like Scroll Thief which seems to just draw a card without someone else losing a card at least tries to fit the flavor by a) having another resoure lost (life thorugh the damage dealt) and b) showing a flavorful representation of breaking in and stealing.

I imagine a cool variant could be: "Each player discards a card, then you draw a card." This would be playing with rumaging/red looting, but also combine it with discard.

I don't think an ability that only lets everyone discard cards would be considered okay for a planeswalker that is monocolored red by many. If it's only discard it's a black staple ability.

I think the second ability right now is doing a good job on capitalizing on having another player discard though in a red way, that also says: Goblin Thief. A goblin is exactly the kind of guy who would trash the place and someone's face in frustration if there was nothing left to steal.

I think you added something thematically to the second ability that was missing before. That's really nice IMO.

thank you for the compliment! I will go with your idea for the first ability. And i have two questions; What exactly is the distinction between red and black discard (for future reference) What is rummaging? (i have heard of looting, and by red looting i assume you mean blue looting done backwards :P)

2018-06-15 19:46:06: Froggychum edited Grezgl, Goblin Thief

The easy answer first: Rummaging = red looting = blue looting backwards. I just used both terms because some people are more familiar with one than the other.

The reference cards are: Merfolk Looter for blue vs. Rummaging Goblin for red.

I have no idea how to comprehensively answer the second question. Technically speaking black gets discard by itself in many variants (Raven's Crime, Specter's Wail, Coercion etc.).

Red really just doesn't get pure discard - only as part/cost of more complex effects e. g. as a cost while rummaging or sometimes so-called "wheel" effects (Wheel of Fortune being the namesake).

I personally bleed some offensive discard into red strictly if it's random (and hence not entirely cost efficient). But you'll get weird looks doing so and it's not something you'll see real cards do.

I think the first ability is a sort of wheel-ability, so i guess it fits.

maybe something like: Each opponent discards a card, then you draw that many cards would be better? But i think that would be too powerful for this small planeswalker

I'm still perplexed by this. Is the reason that this has only two loyalty abilities really so that there would be room for that flavor text? Kamanento, Solitary Archer seems to still sport the traditional three. Why are there planeswalkers here that aren't mythic rare btw? These breaks from norm seem unaccounted for.

It's bothersome that the first ability seems like it would fit a {u}{b} walker or maybe even a mono-{b} walker. {r} isn't that proper here IMO. I would say that {r} possibly having non-wheeling, offensive discard gets pretty novel/'technical'/nuanced so I wouldn't suggest going there if you are still coming to terms in general with the color pie as it has been currently set by WotC or with the common terminology surrounding custom MTG design. Whatever the case, I think such spontaneous wanderings just muddy the waters here. Hopefully I don't sound too overly cautious here, but I don't feel those are the things one should do offhand on a remark.

EDIT: Okay, so going with the thievery theme and keeping the mana cost, my quickish suggestion would be

Grezgl, Goblin Thief {3}{r}
Legendary Planeswalker — Grezgl (mythic)
[+1]: Up to two target creatures with power 2 or less can't be blocked this turn.
[-3]: Gain control of target permanent until end of turn. Untap that permanent. It gains haste until end of turn.
[-6]: You get an emblem with "{r}, Discard a card: Draw a card."
Starting loyalty: [3]

i like every part of that except the first ability. I don't see how that is thievery-themed? its real goblin-y, but i dont see how else it fits

2018-06-17 18:23:27: Froggychum edited Grezgl, Goblin Thief

it does sort of feel like you rewrote a lot of it though. I think I would rather have rummaging be his first ability. Also I can't say I'm fond of the loyalty and loyalty abiltiies number changes. I mean, that's just changing from even to odd numbers :P

I can remove the flavor text. But I also only had 2 abilities because he's a goblin and a small one at that, i figured two would fit the card. Also, do planeswalkers have to give emblems? Because if not putting an emblem there was a further step away from the original design. I'll try something else, se what works

2018-06-17 18:27:26: Froggychum edited Grezgl, Goblin Thief

i can change the ultimate if I need to.

Also the middle ability is what iw ill be experimenting with

2018-06-17 18:30:17: Froggychum edited Grezgl, Goblin Thief

that middle ability sucks on this card, it was interesting on chandra, but not this one

sorry if im grumpy today i feel like garbage and have been having a terrible day in other ways too

2018-06-17 18:31:05: Froggychum edited Grezgl, Goblin Thief
2018-07-01 13:54:13: Froggychum edited Grezgl, Goblin Thief
2018-08-09 21:07:36: Froggychum edited Grezgl, Goblin Thief
2018-08-24 17:39:56: Froggychum edited Grezgl, Goblin Thief
2018-08-25 18:33:31: Froggychum edited Grezgl, Goblin Thief

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