­Primal Huntbeast seems a little efficient for blue, even if it has been getting more hill giant+'s recently. Also, I'd rather have the cheap blue hexproof common of the block in SVU, where it can wear auras in WU.

--CFg

Sort of want this to hit creatures or enchantments, though maybe it'd be too strong then. Really just looking for synergy with Break Down the Walls, since I'm a greedy [censored], even though it's not even a supported color pair.

-CMC-

If we do a more unusual bounce clause at common it probably needs to lose prowess. Also seems weird to explicitly call out exactly creatures and enchantments on a monoU card in set 1, since U doesn't have any enchantment themes.

--CF

I know you touched this a bit with Gather the Thatchers (" has haste now?"), but for a Man-o'-War with prowess just doesn't seem right, man. Even taxing with Cataract Veil is something artifacts have mingled with from time to time in higher rarities, but bounce? Really? Yeah, it sucks at but that's more of a development concern anyway and not something that can be dictated by color pie that well.

Ie. from blogatog:

http://markrosewater.tumblr.com/post/132519159903/is-the-bad-precedent-regarding-the-color-pie-in

> Damnation is actually in color pie. Power level is a development issue.

http://markrosewater.tumblr.com/post/148401962158/whats-your-designer-opinion-on-birds-of-paradise

> Not my call as it’s a power level issue. Reprinting Birds of Paradise would be more done for nostalgia reasons than color pie ones. It’s a bend and not a break but it isn’t emblematic of what Green should be doing.

http://markrosewater.tumblr.com/post/128571494408/maro-we-bombard-you-with-delver-questions-because

> Was it a developmental mistake? Sure. Was it a color pie issue? No.

http://markrosewater.tumblr.com/post/101957532473/is-keeping-a-the-power-levels-of-the-colors-close

> Power level is more of development’s area. Messing with the color pie (responsibly, of course) is more of design’s area.

http://markrosewater.tumblr.com/post/92410198448/if-red-cant-get-enchantment-removal-just-because

> Whether something is in the color pie or not is not about power level. I judge Delver of Secrets on its ability regardless of what Development chooses to cost it at. Likewise, red random enchantment removal is out of color pie regardless of costing.

http://markrosewater.tumblr.com/post/90236491278/would-you-consider-hornet-sting-appropriately-in

> I do not like the practice of justifying color pie with costing. Many players do not have the ability to properly gauge power level so making overcosted color pie-breaking spells only undercuts the clarity of what each color does.

> How do you best communicate that a color can’t do something? By not having it do it. Ever.

http://markrosewater.tumblr.com/post/39482202580/does-the-color-pie-care-about-power-level-can-a

> bonsequitur asked: Does the color pie care about power level? Can a color have access to an effect at a low power level, that it wouldn't get on a higher-powered card?

> There is some argument about this. I believe strongly that doing something at a low power level doesn’t allow a color to do something that it should not do. I do believe though that some colors have abilities they have access to but at a lower power level than the best color at the ability.

etc...

So his opinion on that is quite clear. However, when we move onto the colorless territory:

http://markrosewater.tumblr.com/post/126480250118/how-do-you-feel-about-cards-like-spine-of-ish-sah

> That’s something artifacts do. The trick is making sure they don’t do it too cheaply.

http://markrosewater.tumblr.com/post/24888533726/if-you-had-to-rank-the-shadowmoor

> There is a big difference for me between a color getting access to things through colorless means (artifacts, colorless spells, two-brids from Shadowmoor, etc.) than that color getting the ability in its own color.

> I don’t have issue with green, for example, going to colorless means to get creature removal. It’s going to be considerably worse than the spells in the color that are good at creature removal. What I don’t want is that spell in green. Separation of flavor is very, very important.

> Green having to go get a weapon to kill creatures feels so much better than green just having a spell that does it.

> One of the rules, for the Shadowmoor spells (all of which I like) is that they had to be costed such that they would make sense as artifacts costwise.

... and that's why I dislike colorless cards so much. They are the main culprits when it comes to undermining color pie. Two-brids especially combine these two lines of thought together, and shows exactly just how incompatible and contrary they are since two-brids are both "colorless and of color" in a sense.

So

> Bee Sting
> Sorcery
> ~ deals 2 damage to target creature or player.

isn't okay from color pie stand point, but

> Bee-less Sting
> Sorcery
> ( can be paid with any two mana or with . This card's converted mana cost is 5.)
> ~ deals 2 damage to target creature or player.

would be? I can't be the only one seeing the problem with this.

The first one, the one that's harder to cast, is the problematic one? Sure, yeah, okay, this is fine - whatever, bro.

I think I understand and agree with everything you're saying until you get to your second example card. The cost of isn't okay, but would be, by Maro's logic of the color pie.

Bee-Less Sting is still a color pie violation, because one of its "modes" (in fact, the most efficient one) is direct damage in green. A shock for would be completely in pie. As for the blogatog quotes, the point of the first ones, about using costing to convey color pie, is that a card like shock is still out of pie, even if it's grossly unplayable. The last quote is the only one to address twobrid, and it seems to pretty clearly line up with how we're trying to use twobrid in this set.

Perhaps this doesn't exactly fit your personal dreams for the color pie, but since twobrid is a real mechanic that is very likely to return one day and be used by WotC, I'm pretty comfy as long as we're using it in the way they say is fine.

Regarding Yokhombo Scuttler specifically, it's true that coloreless has gotten very little bounce -- pretty much just Erratic Portal. I think it's fine in pie, but it still might get changed to require at least one hard in development.

--CF

Oh yeah, I totally butched that analogy at the height of that rantish fervor. Definitely there. Well, I still think it smells extremely fishy.

­Erratic Portal is from 1998 and is also isn't erm... "hard-bounce" - so it's hardly a precedent.

Yeah, Erratic portal is not much in the way of precedent. As far as shocks and twobrid go, 3G is off the table, but probably works, even though you can of course use any combination of mana that could cast 3G to cast the twobrid version. But then, you could use 3G to cast Moonglove Extract too. Colors getting acces to out of pie effects by paying generic mana is pretty much out of its bottle now.

--CF

"Out of its bottle" eh? Imagine if MTG designers had went with that though from the very game's conception. Color pie would never have developed further and blue would still have access to most things. IMO that's a cop out, not an argument.

I see it as a flaw and flaws in general should be fixed. If it has been around for a long time, then it's a long-seeded flaw and should be treated as more troublesome.

I don't really know what more there is to say. The color pie is pretty well established, including the ability for colorless/generic to do almost anything. The people who decide that sort of thing have pretty clearly come down one way, and we're planning to pretty much go along with that.

--CF

There's no "perfect state" and there's certainly things to improve in MTG design. That same thing ("The color pie is pretty well established") could be said ten years from now or been said ten years ago. IMO it remains as meaningless in either state. There are mistakes made along the way all the time, and sometimes you may come to right conclusions even if you are on the wrong path. People may have had so much else to think about that this may have evaded their scrutiny. There are infinite reasons as to why at this point of time this is now though of as being the right decision even if it would be wrong. Time does not give meaning itself.

There may not be a "perfect state," but there's certainly a present state -- what things are and are not out of pie, right now. If you made a blue pinger today, it would be out of pie. If you made a red pinger 20 years ago, that would be out of pie. The fact that things will slowly change in the future isn't a reason to not use them roughly as they are now on things that you are doing in the now.

If WotC changes the color pie so that colorless no longer has access to almost any effect while work on this set is ongoing, perhaps we will change the twobrid cards en masse. Perhaps not, since there really isn't much point to twobrid with that pie change. The shadowmoor cycle would become unacceptable, and the mechanic would probably never be used again. If we make a set that is correct for the era and 20 years later some parts of it are obsolete or no longer in the same color, there's no problem with that. It is exactly how real sets have always functioned and will always function, because you don't know exactly which way the future will go (although I personally really doubt that they will ever shift away from colorless pie doing almost anything).

--CF

I'd feel like I'd like this better if this wasn't a crab. What kind of crab has equal P/T and has prowess? Some sort of softshell kung-fu crab?

In regards to the 2-brid discussion, the main question I have here is "are other colors interested in this effect?" I can't see too many non-blue decks that want what amounts essentially to a tempo card for 6 here. For the existing 2-brid cards, Beseech the Queen is definitely a card that other colors would want access too, especially combo decks. Flame Javelin can provide extra reach in an aggressive deck, and Spectral Procession provides chump bodies for defense in a blue or black-based control deck when necessary. Advice from the Fae is kinda garbage all around and I can see some minor applications of Tower Above in a red or white deck. Furthermore, it's a point that Tahazzar mentioned, but all are effects that are strongly a certain color, but every color does have some sort of access to. Colorless can tutor (Tamiyo's Journal), burn (Flamecast Wheel), make tokens (Myr Battlesphere), draw cards (Emmessi Tome), and pump creatures/have a lure effect (Coral Helm, Magnetic Web), but those effects are undeniably a certain "color" when it comes to colored spells that have access to them.

I don't mind the color pie break as much as Tahazzar does, because I can see the justification for it, but this card feels suited for blue-based decks through and through. (And I guess it could go in a RDW-esque deck, but at 6 mana a tempo card is probably not what you're looking for)

So, looking through the set, I'm much more Melvin'd by cards like Burdened by Conscience or Yokhombo Dactyl, and I can see some applications of Kael Palisade, Inevitable Demise, and Obsidian Jaguar, because they're all serviceable in decks that can't cast it for it's colored cost. In this particular instance, I'd rather the cost be than , like you mentioned.

Addendum: @WOM Devign Team, could you do some sort of blurb explaining who's who that is using the account?

­Chromeshell Crab, Giant Crab, Hightide Hermit, Salvage Scuttler, and Thassa's Emissary have equal P/T, though I don't think we're super attached to the current creature type. I have been arguing that this is an in-pie use of twobrid, but I do agree that it isn't the most satisfactory from a design perspective, especially compared to cards like Burdened by Conscience or Yokhombo Dactyl that also much more satisfy my Melvin sensibilities. We still have a tightening up to do around exactly when, where, and how to use twobrid on monocolored cards, but I would be totally unsurprised to see this move to 2UU because it just wasn't a very high value use of a mechanic we want to be judicious with.

I'll see about whipping up a short blurb about us and pinning it -- there are only really two members right now, and as you can probably tell I'm the one who's most chatty on Multiverse.

--CF