Whee! It's Biorhythm-on-a-stick! A... 9/9 flying stick for 4 mana? That also functions as a Platinum Angel while it's on the battlefield?

Actually it functions almost like Worship, and it's only a Biorhythm for your side. So very all or nothing just like black should be.

Yeah... I mean, it seems like this ought somehow to be "Ok, this is my only creature, so I'm on 1 life... but this is a BIG creature, so it's worth the risk"

Maybe if it just explicitly said "When it leaves play, your life total doesn't go back up or anything"? Even then though... this is a BIG beatstick VERY cheap.

Yeah. This is not a drawback. Given that this gives you the best part of Platinum Angel effect, it should be rather higher CMC than P/T. I mean, compare this to Abyssal Persecutor.

I fail to see why you think there is a need to spell out that your life total doesn't go back up. Also as for the Platinum Angel like function I'll be adding "At the beginning of your upkeep if ~ is your only creature put a -1/-1 counter on it."

I like the idea of a black demon with "When ~ leaves the battlefield, your life total becomes 1". That's a slight drawback, probably allowing a 5/5 flyer for 5, or a 5/5 flying trample for 6.

And I can see some argument for a black demon with the Platinum Angel effect: white would be more natural, but I can see justification for it in black, something like Phylactery Lich but applied to you the player rather than the Lich itself. That's a very beneficial effect, costing something like a 4/4 flying for 6 or a 5/5 flying trample for 8.

But I don't think you can apply the drawback discount costing from the first idea to the beneficial effect of the second.

Changed the life setting ability to trigger/ change at your upkeep.

What was this before? A 9/9 for 4 with this ability seems ridiculously powerful. AND it has flying and trample? Wow.

Can no one see how easy this card is to handle?

­Pacifism,Oblivion Ring,Aerial Predation,Afterlife,Avenging Arrow,Crushing Vines,Dreadbore,Intrepid Hero,Hero's Downfall,Murder,Mortify,Pistus Strike,Path of Peace,Pongify,Rapid Hybridization,Reprisal,Terminate. Not to mention any kind of bounce effect.

Yes is great power at high risk.

I guess if needed I can have the life change effect just set your life at 5 or something when you cast it but any set this would be in will have more than enough answers for it.

small tweak I made it gain a -1/-1 counter every turn.

That.. really doesn't help.

Sure; there are cards that can deal with it. That's still a valid reply if this cost the seven it ought to cost for that ability and body.

Black does get big-stompy for cheap+downside. But the discount is smaller than this, and the downside isn't a secret upside.

Hmm.

Hmm.

I'll be honest, I have no idea. I know that citing removal as an excuse as to why a creature is balanced is, in my mind, a faulty argument. Certainly, the presence of instant speed removal makes this creature balanced. But it's an argument that presumes that people who don't play with removal are stupid and/or deserve what they get. That's not a stance I would take.

But, really, the big drawback of this creature isn't that it's vulnerable to removal, but that it is very vulnerable to a counter attack. Racing this creature out on round 3 is a risky play. By round 9, a 9/9 flying trample is still huge, but not as impressive.

I don't know. I'm not fond of it, but that has more to do with the fact that I don't like cards that have the potential to end the game before it really began. It's probably more balanced than it looks, though, and there are bound to be some players who find it exciting. I'm just not one of them.

my point for siting all the removal and such was that every color has an answer for this card that is cheaper than the card itself. I know that this card is pushed. I also know that if actually part of a set it would be the chase mythic and would not be something you'd see often. Also telling me how not good this card does nothing to help. Actual suggestions on how to tweak it however would.

That would be rather difficult to do. I can't give actual suggestions on how to tweak the card without an idea of how you would like the card tweaked. Without direction, I'm bound to give suggestions based upon my opinion.

I do agree that saying a card is no good does nothing to help, but I didn't do that. I said I'm not fond of it, gave a reason why, then backed that up with an understanding that many people who aren't me would find it fun. I also said that I felt the card was balanced and why I felt that way. I'm pretty sure that all falls under the category of 'constructive criticism'. If anything, I was backing up your choices.

Unfortunatley, now I'm stuck trying to figure out what type of criticism you would find helpful, and what type you would find unhelpful. For example, I'm no fan of the -1/-1 counter thingy. It's a little bit of crunchiness that seems to take away from the dramatasism this card represents, and gives us a double drawback... and from what I've seen on Gatherer ratings, players will often forgive one drawback, but cards with two drawbacks, no matter how good they are, will sink dramatically in star value. If the card is too powerful, then I'd suggest just making it an 8/8 rather than try to fix it by saddling it with an extra drawback. Honestly, though, I think you can get away with it just being a 9/9 trampling flyer... but I guess only playtesting will tell you if that's right. Is that a tweak you appreciate, or is that also me telling you how 'the card is not good'?

"Dies to removal" is not a valid argument. To the extent that it's become a cliché.

Now, I like that you've moved the life total setting to an upkeep trigger. The Platinum Angel behaviour was distracting from what this was trying to be. I assume the aim for this is to be a splashy, undercosted huge creature? Then setting your life total to 1 and not keeping it there is a great drawback. This is definitely heading more in the direction of printability.

I agree the -1/-1 counter is pointless. This will kill in three swings as an 8/8 then a 7/7 then a 6/6, just as much as it would as a 9/9 then a 9/9 then a 9/9. It's not a big drawback, and the card already has a big drawback, so it's just a distraction. Take away the distraction to make it clearer what your card is. (If you think it's more balanced as an 8/8, make it an 8/8 rather than a 9/9 that gets a -1/-1 counter.)

@ jmgariepy: My last comment was at folks in general.

@ Alex Your third link also says "the "dies to removal" argument only applies if the creature in question is expected to carry the deck to victory singlehandedly." Also all of the threads you link to are arguing that "it dies to removal is not a valid point in saying that a card is bad" I.E. Baneslayer Angel sucks cause it dies to removal.

My point about removal was that people seen to be posting comments ( not everyone) that say this is too good cause there is now way yo handle it.

Now to the card... My goal here is to create a powerful but risky Demon. Also in light of the comments on the -1/-1 counters its seems that they are not doing their job due to speed. So I ask would getting said -1/-1 counter each upkeep help?

Well, previously it was "And you cannot die until this leaves play".

The way it works now, setting players life total scary low but not bopping it back up (except between turns), is indeed a NICE risky card. Reminiscent of Form of the Dragon. The -1/-1 counters don't seem to add much; but maybe it turns out to too often lead to a bit of a stall and giving it a time-limit is an effective thing. (While normally a 9/9 flying trampler isn't a stall, when it's also set your life low so that you HAVE to block, maybe sometimes it is.)

I guess the answer to this is now "And the controller dies to removal".

Making it decay even more quickly... well, kinda. The problem is - this either wins in a couple of swings or isn't exciting enough to bother with such an exciting downside. (And also seems odd to just be weak in multiplayer)

And you also don't want to make it weaker than the kind of creature you can get for four mana without a downside... Hard to say.

One way or another, this card is going to end games quickly.

What about changing it to.... ­

Flying, Trample

When ~ enters the battlefield your life total becomes equal to the number of creatures you control.

It should make this risky enough game that you might not want to attack with it and a powerful enough card to play late game.

this note is to keep the rules text of the former version ­ Flying, Trample At the beginning of your upkeep put a -1/-1 counter on it. At the beginning of your upkeep if ~ is in play your life total is equal to the number of creatures you control.

@Vonmarcus: Ah, right, right. Sorry about jumping to conclusions. Forum timing will do that to you. Carry on.

oh no worries. How does the current iteration look?

Ok, now it's a five drop, it's a big threat that sets your life (once only) to.. probably 4 ish? Done at the right time it might even be a way to gain a couple of points of life; that's very cool.

Still scary, but now it's on the fair side I think. An opponent seeing this knows they're on a very short clock - but they also know that they probably don't have much further to push.

Yes, this is pretty cool now. Still extremely strong, but within permissible levels for a mythic; and the mana cost is very prohibitive of using this anywhere but monoblack. The drawback will be rather exciting in an all-in kind of way. This is still eye-popping and exciting, just as a mythic should be, but it carries a fair risk and it's that little bit more expensive to make it more likely the opponent will have a removal spell they can afford. Great stuff.

Personally I'm not keen on hugely colour-intensive mana costs, and I'd rather see this at or . But if you want to keep it at that's fine too.

Yeah, I like this a lot now.

Woot Mythic Accomplished!!!