I think it all comes down to whether you want to display Bruce Wayne in the card or if you want to display the Batman.
Batman uses fear and violence (but never death) as his tools - which is clearly black - in order to fight crime, according to his moral system, for the greater good of Gotham - which is white. Rosewater calls this "white goals but a black persona".
Bruce Wayne on the other hand is acting while he is Batman. Bruce is not violent, nor is he fearsome, yet he displays this as Batman, as part of a thought-out system to gain psychological advantage over his foes. He indeed is the thinker and does most of the work of the detective role. His motivations can range from revenge to justice, as explained by Jack V.
I guess for most secret identity superheroes it is very hard - if not impossible - to display both personas in one card without going for a specific interpretation (in this case be it the Nolan movies, the 60s series, his portrayal in a specific comic storyline or whatever).
I think there's several different aspects of Batman, and different comics and different films have shown very different aspects.
Detective batman plans everything out in advance and always wins by being Just That Good, and understanding human nature, and having the right piece of kryptonite planned away. I think detective batman is blue.
Revenge batman is consumed by the desire to avenge his parents and destroy the criminal element in gotham. He can still be a good, moral character if what he's doing is worthwhile, but he still makes it all about him -- brooding, alone, always fighting one-on-one rather than relying on allies or the justice system. Revenge batman is black.
Good batman is genuinely committed to a just, stable society and fights in that cause (even when he's forced to fight outside the law, he's committed to his own code, eg. no guns). He's white.
I think there's even a red batman who's living impulsively, driven by his emotions for his parents, and passionately righting the wrongs in front of him while avoiding thinking whether that's a sustainable long term plan.
I think different interpretations are quite different. I think of Batman as black, based on the Nolan films, and maybe even the 60s TV series. But Rosewater says W or W with U, presumably based on the comics. I think either can work. Although I don't think you can combine W and B easily because they have Batman coming from different motivations. And I think it's harder to have revenge-detective batman than good-detective batman because the methodical planning goes better with "reform society" than "brooding", but it's a legitimate possible interpretation.
I think with Batman there's no one correct answer, since I think different comics and films actually have Batman in different colours while still being Batman. (Whereas other characters vary in other ways but are always the same colour.)
Batman is constantly using his savvy and intellect to defeat foes. I agree completely that he is blue/black. He may do white things, but he does then for what I see as blue/black reasons. Also, he's basically a ninja.
The super serums thing doesn't make cap blue, only those involved in creating the experiment that granted him the powers.
I agree with Alex here that Cap is mono white. Blue can hardly be argued as part of his character and as we established, most of his red elements overlap with white.
Also, "American colors" are also British colors, Netherland's colors, Frensh colors, Australian colors and many more. So while it might bring out the patriotism for everyone living in the US, everyone else (like me) will read the card and go "Huh, what's supposed to be blue about cap?"
Mechanically, it bugs the hell out of me, that Cap's toughness is 3,5 times Thor's toughness. Also, he is a master of martial arts who is admired for his close combat skills by some of the best in the Marvel universe. You might want to put first strike or even double strike on him.
I'd argue Batman is more white than blue. Imo he uses money at least as much as a tool as he uses his mind and his motivations stem way more from a desire for justice and moralic behaviour than from a desire to acquire knowledge or to improve himself.
Yes, he has genius-level intellect but I think it requires way more to be smarter than a Hill Giant to be a blue character. Also many of the ways Batman uses his intellect could be interpreted as knowledge of strategy and combat/weapons which is white's domain.
Technically, Death's role in the Sandman series is to help people move from the realm of the living, to the realm hereafter. Her current incarnation is all "Sucks that you died, dude. But come this way! I got something to show ya!"
So if I was to boil the character down to its essence and design a card around it, I'd probably try to start there, and show a creature that comforted creatures as they moved from the battlefield to the graveyard. Easier said than done, though. I could spend a week on that challenge and still not get a great answer. You know... something not involving gaining life or something that doesn't directly involve the newly dead creatures. Magic creatures don't really freak out when they hit the graveyard. They know enough to stay put, except when they don't.
Mmm... and I don't think the death from Elizabethan era would help jog many memories, either.
Though yeah, a cycle of Endless would hammer it home nicely. What you _really_need is reduced reminder text, to leave room for flavour text :)
I dunno, I'm not sure "once a hundred years" is quite the right iconic ability. Death of the endless pretty much presents "Sympathetic younger sister" and I ave NO idea how to template that. Let alone the whole "Not responsible for killing you, just dealing with the aftermath" part. I mean, an obvious thing to do is just "0/0 Endless, Deathtouch"
Which is... actually kinda hilarious. And functional, once you add enchantments. But ew, "This really can't ever be removed, really" is already an horrific inducement to stack every enchantment and equipment ever.
Pst, Vitenka. Helix Pinnacle already asked for 100 counters before. It's totally a thing. The Yu-Gi-Oh! 'Let's multiply everything by a factor of ten' thing, though, is bound to fetch a negative reaction.
Now that you explained it 10vernothin, I get it. Lack of a picture doesn't help. I kinda blanked on Death of the Endless. I also read too much Marvel, and couldn't quite figure out how this card represented Thanos' beloved Death. Foolish me.
I'm pretty sure that even if Death's Punky Gothster face graced this card, I still wouldn't get the mechanic. Seems kind of random from the outside looking in.
Fair point on the frustration and pre-existing tech though.
Suggest instead something like "Indestructible" and "If this leaves the battlefield, exile it and return it to the battlefield in your next upkeep"
That way opponents can at least wipe out the progress you've made. And while counting to 100 is painful; counting to 10 is probably a lot too easy. Although I guessss that as the payoff is pretty weak, that's fine. Development would change it to be one counter and counting to 10, flavour or no flavour, though. Progress would be something like:
100 counters? How would that even FIT on a card? Use dice? Well, why not use 'this counter is worth 10'? ell... why not just use 10 counters, doi.
Eh. It's an infinite chump blocker. (Which Darksteel Myr says should cost 3 at uncommon, but at mythic costing 2 is probably okay.) BTW reminder text can be more conversational than rules-lawyer-ish: this would be fine saying "(Nothing can make this leave the battlefield except its owner leaving the game.)"
Sorry, but Endless just seems unacceptable to me. Being completely unable to remove this is just crazy. Hexproof and indestructible are already frustrating enough. We don't need another level above that.
Designing her as a Psychopomp is much harder to design than her signature "death for 100 years, alive for 1 day" thing.
The putting of death counters already attest to the fact that she is witness to each creature being born or dying.
Because she is a psychopomp, she doesn't really interact with the dead at all, other than being the "State-based action" itself.
Made Endless into something less oppressive
I think it all comes down to whether you want to display Bruce Wayne in the card or if you want to display the Batman.
Batman uses fear and violence (but never death) as his tools - which is clearly black - in order to fight crime, according to his moral system, for the greater good of Gotham - which is white. Rosewater calls this "white goals but a black persona".
Bruce Wayne on the other hand is acting while he is Batman. Bruce is not violent, nor is he fearsome, yet he displays this as Batman, as part of a thought-out system to gain psychological advantage over his foes. He indeed is the thinker and does most of the work of the detective role. His motivations can range from revenge to justice, as explained by Jack V.
I guess for most secret identity superheroes it is very hard - if not impossible - to display both personas in one card without going for a specific interpretation (in this case be it the Nolan movies, the 60s series, his portrayal in a specific comic storyline or whatever).
The obvious thing to do here is creature type "Batman" and have an entire set of nothing but. For the obvious "I'm batman!" chants.
I got nuthin.
Anyway - sure, a planning-revenge batman who just can't EVER be stopped, and never kills? That hits a couple of his tropes. No problem with that.
I think there's several different aspects of Batman, and different comics and different films have shown very different aspects.
Detective batman plans everything out in advance and always wins by being Just That Good, and understanding human nature, and having the right piece of kryptonite planned away. I think detective batman is blue.
Revenge batman is consumed by the desire to avenge his parents and destroy the criminal element in gotham. He can still be a good, moral character if what he's doing is worthwhile, but he still makes it all about him -- brooding, alone, always fighting one-on-one rather than relying on allies or the justice system. Revenge batman is black.
Good batman is genuinely committed to a just, stable society and fights in that cause (even when he's forced to fight outside the law, he's committed to his own code, eg. no guns). He's white.
I think there's even a red batman who's living impulsively, driven by his emotions for his parents, and passionately righting the wrongs in front of him while avoiding thinking whether that's a sustainable long term plan.
I think different interpretations are quite different. I think of Batman as black, based on the Nolan films, and maybe even the 60s TV series. But Rosewater says W or W with U, presumably based on the comics. I think either can work. Although I don't think you can combine W and B easily because they have Batman coming from different motivations. And I think it's harder to have revenge-detective batman than good-detective batman because the methodical planning goes better with "reform society" than "brooding", but it's a legitimate possible interpretation.
I think with Batman there's no one correct answer, since I think different comics and films actually have Batman in different colours while still being Batman. (Whereas other characters vary in other ways but are always the same colour.)
Batman is constantly using his savvy and intellect to defeat foes. I agree completely that he is blue/black. He may do white things, but he does then for what I see as blue/black reasons. Also, he's basically a ninja.
This so needs to grant flying.
The super serums thing doesn't make cap blue, only those involved in creating the experiment that granted him the powers.
I agree with Alex here that Cap is mono white. Blue can hardly be argued as part of his character and as we established, most of his red elements overlap with white.
Also, "American colors" are also British colors, Netherland's colors, Frensh colors, Australian colors and many more. So while it might bring out the patriotism for everyone living in the US, everyone else (like me) will read the card and go "Huh, what's supposed to be blue about cap?"
Mechanically, it bugs the hell out of me, that Cap's toughness is 3,5 times Thor's toughness. Also, he is a master of martial arts who is admired for his close combat skills by some of the best in the Marvel universe. You might want to put first strike or even double strike on him.
A black-red creature can't have hexproof and be unblockable. I suggest you let him cost UBR and either lower the damage to 2 or push his stats to 4/4.
I'd argue Batman is more white than blue. Imo he uses money at least as much as a tool as he uses his mind and his motivations stem way more from a desire for justice and moralic behaviour than from a desire to acquire knowledge or to improve himself.
Yes, he has genius-level intellect but I think it requires way more to be smarter than a Hill Giant to be a blue character. Also many of the ways Batman uses his intellect could be interpreted as knowledge of strategy and combat/weapons which is white's domain.
Is the set supposed to be played with real cards? I mean this would SO break Legacy. Deathblade is already tier 1. Imagine this:
I mean that can be done constantly enough already with True-Name Nemesis in the spot of Death.
Technically, Death's role in the Sandman series is to help people move from the realm of the living, to the realm hereafter. Her current incarnation is all "Sucks that you died, dude. But come this way! I got something to show ya!"
So if I was to boil the character down to its essence and design a card around it, I'd probably try to start there, and show a creature that comforted creatures as they moved from the battlefield to the graveyard. Easier said than done, though. I could spend a week on that challenge and still not get a great answer. You know... something not involving gaining life or something that doesn't directly involve the newly dead creatures. Magic creatures don't really freak out when they hit the graveyard. They know enough to stay put, except when they don't.
Mmm... and I don't think the death from Elizabethan era would help jog many memories, either.
Though yeah, a cycle of Endless would hammer it home nicely. What you _really_need is reduced reminder text, to leave room for flavour text :)
I dunno, I'm not sure "once a hundred years" is quite the right iconic ability. Death of the endless pretty much presents "Sympathetic younger sister" and I ave NO idea how to template that. Let alone the whole "Not responsible for killing you, just dealing with the aftermath" part. I mean, an obvious thing to do is just "0/0 Endless, Deathtouch"
Which is... actually kinda hilarious. And functional, once you add enchantments. But ew, "This really can't ever be removed, really" is already an horrific inducement to stack every enchantment and equipment ever.
Pst, Vitenka. Helix Pinnacle already asked for 100 counters before. It's totally a thing. The Yu-Gi-Oh! 'Let's multiply everything by a factor of ten' thing, though, is bound to fetch a negative reaction.
Now that you explained it 10vernothin, I get it. Lack of a picture doesn't help. I kinda blanked on Death of the Endless. I also read too much Marvel, and couldn't quite figure out how this card represented Thanos' beloved Death. Foolish me.
I'm pretty sure that even if Death's Punky Gothster face graced this card, I still wouldn't get the mechanic. Seems kind of random from the outside looking in.
Fair point on the frustration and pre-existing tech though.
Suggest instead something like "Indestructible" and "If this leaves the battlefield, exile it and return it to the battlefield in your next upkeep"
That way opponents can at least wipe out the progress you've made. And while counting to 100 is painful; counting to 10 is probably a lot too easy. Although I guessss that as the payoff is pretty weak, that's fine. Development would change it to be one counter and counting to 10, flavour or no flavour, though. Progress would be something like:
100 counters? How would that even FIT on a card? Use dice? Well, why not use 'this counter is worth 10'? ell... why not just use 10 counters, doi.
Eh. It's an infinite chump blocker. (Which Darksteel Myr says should cost 3 at uncommon, but at mythic costing 2 is probably okay.) BTW reminder text can be more conversational than rules-lawyer-ish: this would be fine saying "(Nothing can make this leave the battlefield except its owner leaving the game.)"
Sorry, but Endless just seems unacceptable to me. Being completely unable to remove this is just crazy. Hexproof and indestructible are already frustrating enough. We don't need another level above that.
If you get it during your turn. YAY! If you get it not during your turn. BOO!
Face it, Desire is a fickle thing.