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CardName: Borrowed Methods Cost: 2BB Type: Sorcery Pow/Tgh: / Rules Text: Exile the top three cards of target player's library face down. You may look at and play those cards as long as they remain exiled. Flavour Text: There is no better way to deflect suspicion than to use a page from someone else’s book. Set/Rarity: Soradyne Laboratories v1.2 Rare

Borrowed Methods
{2}{b}{b}
 
 R 
Sorcery
Exile the top three cards of target player's library face down. You may look at and play those cards as long as they remain exiled.
There is no better way to deflect suspicion than to use a page from someone else’s book.
Updated on 23 Apr 2012 by SFletcher

Code: RB06

Active?: true

History: [-]

2012-04-15 22:29:53: SFletcher created the card Borrowed Methods
2012-04-15 22:32:32: SFletcher edited Borrowed Methods
2012-04-19 14:27:38: SFletcher edited Borrowed Methods
2012-04-21 14:42:32: SFletcher edited Borrowed Methods

Fascinating. Reminds me of Psychic Theft, but at least the cards stay discarded this way. It's also a bit good at {1}{b}{b} for a double-Coercion-plusplus.

Reminds me of Praetor's Grasp.

Holy cannoli! That is Hymn to Tourach power range. I'd argue that it is better, but, by virtue of it not having the same casting cost, it's too hard to make such an open-ended argument.

Discards 2 of your choice would probably be this cost nowadays. Being allowed to cast them yourself (steal an early land drop, would be the obvious use) does seem even more powerful.

Making it the opponents choice probably puts it back in the cost range; or bumping it to cost 4 so it's too late to use as a manascrew.

There are certainly problems with this. Initially had it at {3}{b}{b}, but brought it down so that the player casting it would still theoretically have mana to play whatever spells are stolen. Not sure how I missed how flawed that move would be.

That looked like what happened. I know that Vitenka's comment about power curve infers that spells have gotten more powerful over time, but the opposite is true, really. In the past 10 years, sorceries and instants have become less powerful. It's the creatures that have been shooting up the curve. The occasional Lightning Bolt reprint or Doom Blade nudging Terror is just that. Occasional.

That being said, I am at a bit of a loss of how to help with the "if this card costs too much, the second ability will never be relevant". The three options that spring to mind are:

  • Make it so that you don't have to cast the spell right now... it can just sit there exiled until you want to use it. Unfortunately, that might mean the spell jumps to a cc of {4}{b}{b}. That is, after all, better than Tidings in a lot of scenarios.
  • Make it so you can only cast the exiled cards during your next turn only. It's funny, but it works. It even brings up the interesting question of "Do you want to exile two Lightning Bolts you can cast, or a Graveborn Titan and a Hypnotic Specter, knowing you'll only have time to cast the Specter."
  • Let the opponent choose, and settle on Mind Rot. Sure, you may not always get what you want, but you still have a fun little mini-game moment... this time for both you and your opponent. It's a bit like Fact or Fiction, except you're playing with your opponent's hand.
  • I think this wouldn't really be land screw on turn 3, would it? Turn 3, drop a land, cast this but land is already played for the turn. Turn 4 cast it and can still play a land for the turn.

    I think it might be interesting to just exile two cards and let the opponent choose which one can be cast for the rest of the game and leave the other exiled?

    Um. My comment is "This is too cheap; tourachs hymm used to be acceptable, but now isn't - this is better than tourachs in two ways, and only costs one more - needs to be made worse in some way"

    I agree it can't steal mana effectively from a weenie deck; but stealing an opponents 4th land is plenty nasty enough in most decks.

    I really like the "set aside to cast next turn" minigame idea.

    I’m starting to see this as an enchantment with a cost in the 4-5 CMC range. I’d jump off of jmgariepy’s idea of being able to use the stolen cards later. I also think the “Fact or Fiction” idea is pretty interesting. Let me mull this over...

    2012-04-22 19:57:33: SFletcher edited Borrowed Methods

    Let's try it this way. Now it's effectively mill rather than discard, so you're not specifically denying your opponent their "in-hand" land drops, and you still get the opportunity to play their spells. It's a black pseudo-Ancestral Recall, but with the ability to bounce it or disenchant it, and at a much fairer price.

    2012-04-22 20:01:49: SFletcher edited Borrowed Methods

    You don't need the "as though they were in your hand" clause. I also don't understand why it's an enchantment rather than a sorcery. I get that it allows your opponent to neutralize it, but I don't think that's necessary.

    Like dude1818, I don't think this needs to be an enchantment. It would be fine as a sorcery.

    I assume it's for memory issues. It doesn't have any function, but it lets you put it on the table, and keep the exiled cards near it. You could do that with a sorcery too, but there will always be one stickler who will insist that you need to put that sorcery in the graveyard...

    If I tried to cite the technical rules I'm sure I'd mangle them (Houlding probably knows them better than I do), but my general understanding of it is that the effect of a sorcery ends at the end of the turn unless otherwise specified. So for you to be able to play the exiled cards a turn or two after you've exiled them, you need to have a continual source/ability that allows you to use them. Hence, an enchantment.

    As for the stickler, he's right, and he's not being a dick. You DO need to put resolved sorceries in the graveyard unless otherwise directed.

    L2 already name-checked Praetor's Grasp which shows how it would be done as a Sorcery.

    I think this is something that needs to find its flavor and intent before you decide on a card-type.

    Ha! Okay SFletcher, I'm putting the sorcery in the graveyard. You want another another beer from the fridge?

    2012-04-23 19:11:18: SFletcher edited Borrowed Methods

    Hmm. From top of deck looks a lot worse to me. You no longer get to choose the cards, you're not depriving your opponent - and you still need to be able to pay their colours. So now I'm saying this is probably too expensive for its effect. But if you do hit playable cards, it's effectively "Draw three" as you say; so maybe. Oooh, combo it with something that prevents people having cards in their hands.

    Vitenka, this is always "Draw Three", you're just drawing cards from an opponent's library.

    I think it's definitely found the flavor and the form, good job. Whether it's "good" is a less important question. It's definitely better than Distant Memories.

    Could go to four cards reasonably, but three cards gives you about even odds of pulling a land within the three cards, thereby increasing your ability to cast their spells.

    Well, it's "Draw 3 that you didn't put in your deck so maybe you don't want or can't cast"

    It's "you have three fewer cards and you don't know which ones".

    This is a nice design. As evidenced by the intense discussion :) It works fine in the rules; and it's a delightful black tweak on Concentrate. (Okay, Ambition's Cost is a more straightforward black tweak on Concentrate, but this is more fun.)

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