Kami are about as much undead as Angels are (kami are spirits in the same way a genius loci is - they are manifestations/incarnations of an idea/concept/object/place that never needed to be alive e. g. the Spirit of Christmas Past is something different than the ghost of someone who died last christmas (I never read the original story, but the adaptations imply there is one "ghost of a dead person" and three "manifestations of abstract concepts"; the first would be undead to me and the later would not)) - which they are IIRC implied to be on Alara. It differs from plane to plane and sometimes even within the same plane.
Graveborn are a token-only creature type featured on two cards (see Sek'Kuar, Deathkeeper). I understand them as Zombies and have previously pondered changing the tokens simply to Zombie creature tokens named Graveborn (compare Wasp tokens on The Hive).
I am not aware of any statement by WotC what Graveborn are, so maybe they are more like Thrulls. And maybe some are ready to argue Thrulls are undead or skaab are not - it's a whole mess. ^^
How about Horrors? Some of them look like they should be undead. Wraiths? Honestly just a type of Spirit like Specter as far as I can tell.
Now how I imagine this mess could be resolved despite the fact that I would personally be unhappy with: Make the reminder text correct and comprehensive for the current Standard environment - avoid printing any ambiguous cases in that Standard. Never return to it.
One important thing to mention: The way I have written the reminder text matches with other official reminder text and doesn't need to be comprehensive.
IIRC historic reminder text is also written in such a way that if they introduce a future characteristic that also makes a card historic e. g. "Cards with relic mana in their mana cost are historic." the current reminder text does not become obsolete - only incomplete - I think they did that incorrectly on some older cards, but take care now to keep this template.
The reason I mock up a reminder text for a batch word in the comment, but not use it on the card is, that my current position is it should not be done. I just wonder what they'll pick if WotC decides otherwise.
Special rsponse to one of the examples: I don't know whether Dancing Scimitar is supposed to be a blade wielded by a ghost, or more the genius/kami type of Spirit, but Haunted Guardian clearly is (according to the flavor text) a ghost of a dead wearing armor and nevertheless creature type Construct. I have strong opinions on this, but clearly the line blurs both ways in already existing official cards.
How much of an issue would it also be that new potential types would have to be included afterwards in that encompassing term? With undead I can see that reminder text getting quite long unless we trust that players are able to distinguish most types that would be included in that term and omit to mention some of them. In the worst scenarios, I could see this listing becoming something you would have to 'memorize' / or check up on constantly during / for competitive play.
You mention 'Graveborn' - I don't know what that is :/ Sounds like an alternative name for undead.
Yeah, linear strategies have their place. And as the link to Sworn Conspirator shows this is actually supposed to find more copies of itself.
I'd hve no problem including this as the only Rat into a set and still be fine with it. Actual Rat tribal with this could be a neat way to encourage interblock deck-building.
The Merfolk thing is interesting and obviously born from the environment. It's a good idea to include Merfolk in the list of sea critters, because Merfolk tribal is relevant due to Ixalan-block.
this is also one issue of why I list all these creature types in rules text rather than e. g. using the "batching" implied by the original comment:
> Look at the top five cards of your library. You may reveal a sea monster or Island card from among them and put it into your hand. Put the rest on the bottom of your library in any order. (Kraken, Leviathan, Octopus and Serpent are sea monsters.)
It's a technology we now have since historic, but which will at tims not be used due to the lines being blurry as shown above.
My reason to exclude Merfolk includes two other aspects:
For one, it's actually sensible to have the two alternatives be "land" and "fatty that you get if you already have enough land". Though it certainly is not necessary to do it like that.
For another, while three of these types want to be fatties, I would totally make an Octopus small - and not just by going Kraken Hatchling on them. A real Octopus is quite small. I think Squids are actually more associated with having oversized variants.
Slinn Voda, the Rising Deep & Whelming Wave as well? Slinn sneaked Merfolk in there, which feels a bit like a cop out to me. Instead of suggesting going all in with the fatties, it allows you to fill your lower curve with a tribe like Merfolk and then add the big guys as topping.
Used to be called Radiant's Judgment, but canonically Bruna cared more about Humans than Radiant, Archangel. I really only stuck with the name because the first idea I had was Radiant Judgment and had nothing to with the character.
I actually did the world building already: Wolf of Shepherd's Meadow(Note that I haven't settled on Glen vs. Meadow for the location's name). So did WotC: Watchwolf.
I personally at first assumed that Envoy costs about or like drawing a card/cantrip, but looking at the existing envoys (e. g. Enlistment Officer) that might not be necessary - and as you note this card gets to be at the top end of the power curve for being off-tribe, so I went with (already obsolete) Rib Cage Spider + , which is still more than "half a mana".
One thing to always consider when assuming that this is even equal to a cantrip, that just getting a cantrip out of this is a tribal reward; so e. g. a variant that was more Commune with Dinosaurs and allowed you to get only one card (and no land) would be cost below a cantrip, even as a tribal reward, because even if you play an individual on-tribe card or two you are likely to miss.
You'll notice how I cost the above linked Shepherd's Glen Ranger much closer to a cantrip.
I think hitting more than two cards with this can be considered "the dream" with an outside chance (even in Constructed). I cost them as "likely 0-2 cards drawn" with a pinch of "you already need commitment to get even a reliable 0-1".
I guess I could enforce 0-2 by using a wording like Collected Company. It would feel bad though to turn "the dream" scenario into one of wasted potential.
I like this "Envoy (type)" mechanic. Especially since you seem to be requiring it to be off-type, so it doesn't just devolve to "Draw the next 3 non-land cards"
Although the world building that leads to a shepherd being the envoy of the wolves, rather than, you know, the one that defends the sheep from them, boggles me.
One possible issue - would your set reall have enough differnet wolves, and differnet dinosaurs etc. to be able to support so many different envoys?
I also wonder a bit about the cost, you seem to have envoy costing about half a mana; but it seems like it should be worth more than that, since it might draw you 4 cards. Equally, of course, it might do nothing - but still, I'd think it'd be at least as expensive as cantrip.
Inspired by Plague of the Aetherborn's current rules text:
>"Target player loses 2 life, discards a card and sacrifices a creature with converted mana cost 2 or less"
With flash, I suppose. And if it can give you four-drops on turn two that's not actually bad with 20 life. I don't know how it would play in the slower Commander.
Huh, wow. "All cards can be used as utopia" with a slightly reduced hand size but also if you can drop the ability to put extra lands into play each turn, wow.
...How is hymm of the wilds not just strictly worse than ": "?
Well, it only needs balancing against other conspiracies; not against "not having a second commander" but against "not having a second commander, but having some other mythic conspiracy instead"
I wonder. I don't know about your experience with Dominaria, but as far as I can tell you generally get a chance to pick up some legendaries. Card collation helps.
I imagine this would be drafted in a set that effectively gives you a guaranteed legendary creature (or more) per pack as well.
And that set could use any number of tricks to boost those numbers. The most brute force being nonlegendary commons that can be your commander.
That said this is also an option for an unofficial Constructed Commander variant that allows each player to bring a conspiracy/maybe a vanguard.
I'm really not certain how many drawbacks to pile onto a card that gives you an additional commander would be sufficient.
Uncommon?
? Who knows?
Kami are about as much undead as Angels are (kami are spirits in the same way a genius loci is - they are manifestations/incarnations of an idea/concept/object/place that never needed to be alive e. g. the Spirit of Christmas Past is something different than the ghost of someone who died last christmas (I never read the original story, but the adaptations imply there is one "ghost of a dead person" and three "manifestations of abstract concepts"; the first would be undead to me and the later would not)) - which they are IIRC implied to be on Alara. It differs from plane to plane and sometimes even within the same plane.
Graveborn are a token-only creature type featured on two cards (see Sek'Kuar, Deathkeeper). I understand them as Zombies and have previously pondered changing the tokens simply to Zombie creature tokens named Graveborn (compare Wasp tokens on The Hive).
I am not aware of any statement by WotC what Graveborn are, so maybe they are more like Thrulls. And maybe some are ready to argue Thrulls are undead or skaab are not - it's a whole mess. ^^
How about Horrors? Some of them look like they should be undead. Wraiths? Honestly just a type of Spirit like Specter as far as I can tell.
Now how I imagine this mess could be resolved despite the fact that I would personally be unhappy with: Make the reminder text correct and comprehensive for the current Standard environment - avoid printing any ambiguous cases in that Standard. Never return to it.
One important thing to mention: The way I have written the reminder text matches with other official reminder text and doesn't need to be comprehensive.
IIRC historic reminder text is also written in such a way that if they introduce a future characteristic that also makes a card historic e. g. "Cards with relic mana in their mana cost are historic." the current reminder text does not become obsolete - only incomplete - I think they did that incorrectly on some older cards, but take care now to keep this template.
The reason I mock up a reminder text for a batch word in the comment, but not use it on the card is, that my current position is it should not be done. I just wonder what they'll pick if WotC decides otherwise.
Special rsponse to one of the examples: I don't know whether Dancing Scimitar is supposed to be a blade wielded by a ghost, or more the genius/kami type of Spirit, but Haunted Guardian clearly is (according to the flavor text) a ghost of a dead wearing armor and nevertheless creature type Construct. I have strong opinions on this, but clearly the line blurs both ways in already existing official cards.
You kind of touched on this with your recent comment on the Commune with the Depths, but while majority of the 'Spirits' are undead, but I don't think all are. Are the Kamigawa Spirits such as Adamaro, First to Desire undead? Kind of, right? I don't recall how that mythology/flavor went exactly. How about Blinking Spirit, Bogardan Firefiend, Angelic Page, Diviner Spirit, Flame Spirit, or Dancing Scimitar? What about the various Spirit Avatars such as Deus of Calamity or Nobilis of War?
How much of an issue would it also be that new potential types would have to be included afterwards in that encompassing term? With undead I can see that reminder text getting quite long unless we trust that players are able to distinguish most types that would be included in that term and omit to mention some of them. In the worst scenarios, I could see this listing becoming something you would have to 'memorize' / or check up on constantly during / for competitive play.
You mention 'Graveborn' - I don't know what that is :/ Sounds like an alternative name for undead.
Yeah, linear strategies have their place. And as the link to Sworn Conspirator shows this is actually supposed to find more copies of itself.
I'd hve no problem including this as the only Rat into a set and still be fine with it. Actual Rat tribal with this could be a neat way to encourage interblock deck-building.
That first post was supposed to say Whelming Wave over Undead Slayer. Weird copy-paste error. Will fix.
The Merfolk thing is interesting and obviously born from the environment. It's a good idea to include Merfolk in the list of sea critters, because Merfolk tribal is relevant due to Ixalan-block.
this is also one issue of why I list all these creature types in rules text rather than e. g. using the "batching" implied by the original comment:
> Look at the top five cards of your library. You may reveal a sea monster or Island card from among them and put it into your hand. Put the rest on the bottom of your library in any order. (Kraken, Leviathan, Octopus and Serpent are sea monsters.)
It's a technology we now have since historic, but which will at tims not be used due to the lines being blurry as shown above.
My reason to exclude Merfolk includes two other aspects:
For one, it's actually sensible to have the two alternatives be "land" and "fatty that you get if you already have enough land". Though it certainly is not necessary to do it like that.
For another, while three of these types want to be fatties, I would totally make an Octopus small - and not just by going Kraken Hatchling on them. A real Octopus is quite small. I think Squids are actually more associated with having oversized variants.
Slinn Voda, the Rising Deep & Whelming Wave as well? Slinn sneaked Merfolk in there, which feels a bit like a cop out to me. Instead of suggesting going all in with the fatties, it allows you to fill your lower curve with a tribe like Merfolk and then add the big guys as topping.
Used to be called Radiant's Judgment, but canonically Bruna cared more about Humans than Radiant, Archangel. I really only stuck with the name because the first idea I had was Radiant Judgment and had nothing to with the character.
References: Angelic Edict/Blessed Light/Iona's Judgment, Bruna, the Fading Light
Reference: Commune with the Gods/Commune with Dinosaurs, Quest for Ula's Temple/Whelming Wave
(Kraken, Leviathan, Octopus, Serpent are sea monsters.)
(Fish and Whales are apparently too mundane. They are like sea food. But an Octopus is all weird and squirmy.)
etc.
Reference: Commune with the Gods/Commune with Dinosaurs, Death Baron/Undead Slayer
(Skeletons, Vampires and Zombies are undead.)
(Graveborn, Shades, Spirits and Specters are undead, too?)
etc.
Oh. This is a rat envoy for other rats. Which makes envoy a lot less interesting to me.
Still, it's a nice strong rat lord. Rat-sized, summons more rats. Boring repeatable decks have their place, sometimes, I guess.
References: Relentless Rats/Rat Colony, Sworn Conspirator
Could be keyworded as "Envoy of Rats" but I am not coding that keyword right now, so the ability word stands in for that option.
I actually did the world building already: Wolf of Shepherd's Meadow (Note that I haven't settled on Glen vs. Meadow for the location's name). So did WotC: Watchwolf.
I personally at first assumed that Envoy costs about
or
like drawing a card/cantrip, but looking at the existing envoys (e. g. Enlistment Officer) that might not be necessary - and as you note this card gets to be at the top end of the power curve for being off-tribe, so I went with (already obsolete) Rib Cage Spider +
, which is still more than "half a mana".
One thing to always consider when assuming that this is even equal to a cantrip, that just getting a cantrip out of this is a tribal reward; so e. g. a variant that was more Commune with Dinosaurs and allowed you to get only one card (and no land) would be cost below a cantrip, even as a tribal reward, because even if you play an individual on-tribe card or two you are likely to miss.
You'll notice how I cost the above linked Shepherd's Glen Ranger much closer to a cantrip.
I think hitting more than two cards with this can be considered "the dream" with an outside chance (even in Constructed). I cost them as "likely 0-2 cards drawn" with a pinch of "you already need commitment to get even a reliable 0-1".
I guess I could enforce 0-2 by using a wording like Collected Company. It would feel bad though to turn "the dream" scenario into one of wasted potential.
I like this "Envoy (type)" mechanic. Especially since you seem to be requiring it to be off-type, so it doesn't just devolve to "Draw the next 3 non-land cards"
Although the world building that leads to a shepherd being the envoy of the wolves, rather than, you know, the one that defends the sheep from them, boggles me.
One possible issue - would your set reall have enough differnet wolves, and differnet dinosaurs etc. to be able to support so many different envoys?
I also wonder a bit about the cost, you seem to have envoy costing about half a mana; but it seems like it should be worth more than that, since it might draw you 4 cards. Equally, of course, it might do nothing - but still, I'd think it'd be at least as expensive as cantrip.
References:Shepherd's Glen Ranger, Sylvan Messenger
Could be keyworded as "Envoy of Wolves" but I am not coding that keyword right now, so the ability word stands in for that option.
References: Forerunner of the Empire, Enlistment Officer
Could be keyworded as "Envoy of Dinosaurs" but I am not coding that keyword right now, so the ability word stands in for that option.
References: Forerunner of the Coalition, Goblin Ringleader
Could be keyworded as "Envoy of Pirate" but I am not coding that keyword right now, so the ability word stands in for that option.
References: Forerunner of the Heralds, Tidal Courier
Could be keyworded as "Envoy of Merfolk" but I am not coding that keyword right now, so the ability word stands in for that option.
References: Forerunner of the Legion, Grave Defiler
Could be keyworded as "Envoy of Vampires" but I am not coding that keyword right now, so the ability word stands in for that option.
Inspired by Plague of the Aetherborn's current rules text: >"Target player loses 2 life, discards a card and sacrifices a creature with converted mana cost 2 or less"
With flash, I suppose. And if it can give you four-drops on turn two that's not actually bad with 20 life. I don't know how it would play in the slower Commander.
Huh, wow. "All cards can be used as utopia" with a slightly reduced hand size but also if you can drop the ability to put extra lands into play each turn, wow.
...How is hymm of the wilds not just strictly worse than "
:
"?
So Sovereign's Realm and Hymn of the Wilds? That's a thought.
Well, it only needs balancing against other conspiracies; not against "not having a second commander" but against "not having a second commander, but having some other mythic conspiracy instead"
I wonder. I don't know about your experience with Dominaria, but as far as I can tell you generally get a chance to pick up some legendaries. Card collation helps.
I imagine this would be drafted in a set that effectively gives you a guaranteed legendary creature (or more) per pack as well.
And that set could use any number of tricks to boost those numbers. The most brute force being nonlegendary commons that can be your commander.
That said this is also an option for an unofficial Constructed Commander variant that allows each player to bring a conspiracy/maybe a vanguard.
I'm really not certain how many drawbacks to pile onto a card that gives you an additional commander would be sufficient.