You two up there are aware that I mentioned another common that is just this plus morph in the first comment? I think Kin-Tree Warden provides appropriate context.
@Tahazzar:
Both the old thread of yours and the card you link to are about a card that has ": ~ gets +1/+1 UEOT." in addition to regeneration/activated indestructibility. I'm not certain I understand why you use these references.
Also you quote someone elses comment on one of your designs without indicating whether you agree or don't. :confused:
For whatever it's worth I have no strong preference for either wording and due to a shift in mechanics/answers over the last decade (both in canon sets as in custom sets) I do not consider indestructible inherently more powerful. At the very least there is recourse.
Well since I derped this comment I might as well quote (not my comment) something related from an old thread of mine (from 2013):
> "Instead I'd rather talk about the indestructible at common. Losing regenerate and adding indestructible (a more powerful effect) in it's place seems to achieve nothing. This card now comes across as overpowered and has pretty much the same complexity as it would have if it regenerated."
Separating same sized creature tokens that have flying and don't have flying is a common nuisance but still manageable (sometimes barely).
With all those other different tokens they are usually of different sizes so you can slap some "+1/+1 counters" on them to differentiate them. Also, the tokens usually have the decency of being fairly vanilla - which might or might not be true for bifurcate but it does seem like it's calling for some not-so-vanilla designs that might or might not share the same (squared?) p/t stats along with many bifurcate cards.
I have a solution to such scenarios that can handle large amounts of tokens. I could go through the motions with you. But you would always have to ask yourself: how would they play a deck with the above mentioned Bird/Spirit/Soldier token combination or a RtR-populate deck that makes full use of... let's say... Miming Slime, Giant Adephage and Urbis Protector in addition to populate cards like Eyes in the Skies, Vitu-Ghazi Guildmage and Horncaller's Chant.
Any solution I propose to you will be better than what they could do for that populate deck even if they play more than six differently named cards with bifurcate.
tl;dr: I propose they use the same solution that they use for any diverse token deck with the free bonus of having the exiled cards as markers that they usually wouldn't have.
This is my default kitchen table mtg scenario / assumption: There are 3-players having a multiplayer match on a small dining table. They use pen and paper to keep track of their life totals (the iphone app is pretty popular too), have no dice (maybe one of them has that D20 for life total), use pennies and such for +1/+1 / loyalty counters, and none of them care to drag a bunch of token cards with them. For creature tokens they use face down cards from decks that aren't being used.
DFCs for example can be a pain if you don't have nontransparent sleeves - the official proxies are used in decks with transparent sleeves, but the actual card might be omitted (in the case of a card such Delver of Secrets but maybe not with the planeswalkers) since none of the players have sideboards anyway so having to carry cards that "aren't actually part of your deck" isn't that common of a practice.
I would need to playtest this, but experience tells me that using a single card to keep track of multiple - even many - tokens is quite often comfortable e. g. I just used two differently colored dice or two solitary token cards plus dice to represent my hybrid Squirrel/Saproling horde (or depending on the deck the Bird/Spirit/Soldier horde).
Additionally if I were to use this mechanic or a similar one I have already a plan for "generic" tokens - which each represent copies and come in multiple (e. g. four) variants so as long as you are not having token copies of more than four different originals you are fine.
Can you keep "splitting" the tokens as well? Imagine if you "split" this twice then drop one or two other bifurcate creatures and split them as well. Then you tap like half of them attack or so. You got a grand mess right there.
The exile clause IMO isn't that helpful in this scenario since it immediately needs to keep "track of" multiple objects. It's like an Aura that attempted to be enchanting two creatures simultaneously.
It does have memory issues. As I made the mechanic up on the spot to make a different point that is unrelated to the memory issue, that question never came up. (I also think it maybe shouldn't work at instant speed.)
I recall projection and like its possibilities, but what do you think about the following alternate solution for this effect?
Bifurcate (: Exile this permanent. If you do, create two tokens that are copies of it. Bifurcate as a sorcery.)
Affinity for Swamps (This spell costs less to cast for each Swamps you control.) Enchant creature
Enchanted creature has trample and lifelink and gets +2/+2.
Illus. Leos "Okita" Ng
While affinity is a somewhat infamous mechanic due to the fallout of affinity to artifacts, variants of the mechanic are not inherently impossible to develop. The safest form of affinity is tying the cost reduction mechanic to basic land types and printing it on colored cards, so their mana cost is not easily reduced to zero.
This card is one of several designs I made that experimented with indirectly colored cards. While the mana cost only contains red mana symbols the cards cost is also tied to your access to Swamps and hence black mana. You can imagine virtual monocolor hybrid mana symbols in these mana costs.
So just like Dross Golem this card gets access to a keyword usually seen in black which otherwise would not be found on a monocolored red card (here lifelink rather than the outdated fear). Just as with cards like Beseech the Queen I wouldn't want to push the effect to be something that you couldn't get from an artifact with a generic mana cost e. g. Loxodon Warhammer.
You two up there are aware that I mentioned another common that is just this plus morph in the first comment? I think Kin-Tree Warden provides appropriate context.
@Tahazzar: Both the old thread of yours and the card you link to are about a card that has "
: ~ gets +1/+1 UEOT." in addition to regeneration/activated indestructibility. I'm not certain I understand why you use these references.
Also you quote someone elses comment on one of your designs without indicating whether you agree or don't. :confused:
For whatever it's worth I have no strong preference for either wording and due to a shift in mechanics/answers over the last decade (both in canon sets as in custom sets) I do not consider indestructible inherently more powerful. At the very least there is recourse.
Can create stalls, I would add "Can't block" or something like that.
derp (didn't notice your initial comment)
Well since I derped this comment I might as well quote (not my comment) something related from an old thread of mine (from 2013):
> "Instead I'd rather talk about the indestructible at common. Losing regenerate and adding indestructible (a more powerful effect) in it's place seems to achieve nothing. This card now comes across as overpowered and has pretty much the same complexity as it would have if it regenerated."
:p
Darkling Stalker at common sounds pretty busted though.
activated ability: "becomes" >> "gains"
activated ability: "becomes" >> "gains"
activated ability: "becomes" >> "gains"
activated ability: "becomes" >> "gains"
Source
Source
Source
Since then Dutiful Thrull has been released.
Compare: Zombie Pirate.
Source
Since then Dutiful Thrull has been released.
Source
Since then Asphodel Wanderer and Kin-Tree Warden have been released.
Separating same sized creature tokens that have flying and don't have flying is a common nuisance but still manageable (sometimes barely).
With all those other different tokens they are usually of different sizes so you can slap some "+1/+1 counters" on them to differentiate them. Also, the tokens usually have the decency of being fairly vanilla - which might or might not be true for bifurcate but it does seem like it's calling for some not-so-vanilla designs that might or might not share the same (squared?) p/t stats along with many bifurcate cards.
I have a solution to such scenarios that can handle large amounts of tokens. I could go through the motions with you. But you would always have to ask yourself: how would they play a deck with the above mentioned Bird/Spirit/Soldier token combination or a RtR-populate deck that makes full use of... let's say... Miming Slime, Giant Adephage and Urbis Protector in addition to populate cards like Eyes in the Skies, Vitu-Ghazi Guildmage and Horncaller's Chant.
Any solution I propose to you will be better than what they could do for that populate deck even if they play more than six differently named cards with bifurcate.
tl;dr: I propose they use the same solution that they use for any diverse token deck with the free bonus of having the exiled cards as markers that they usually wouldn't have.
That works for a prerelease or whathaveyou.
This is my default kitchen table mtg scenario / assumption: There are 3-players having a multiplayer match on a small dining table. They use pen and paper to keep track of their life totals (the iphone app is pretty popular too), have no dice (maybe one of them has that D20 for life total), use pennies and such for +1/+1 / loyalty counters, and none of them care to drag a bunch of token cards with them. For creature tokens they use face down cards from decks that aren't being used.
DFCs for example can be a pain if you don't have nontransparent sleeves - the official proxies are used in decks with transparent sleeves, but the actual card might be omitted (in the case of a card such Delver of Secrets but maybe not with the planeswalkers) since none of the players have sideboards anyway so having to carry cards that "aren't actually part of your deck" isn't that common of a practice.
I would need to playtest this, but experience tells me that using a single card to keep track of multiple - even many - tokens is quite often comfortable e. g. I just used two differently colored dice or two solitary token cards plus dice to represent my hybrid Squirrel/Saproling horde (or depending on the deck the Bird/Spirit/Soldier horde).
Additionally if I were to use this mechanic or a similar one I have already a plan for "generic" tokens - which each represent copies and come in multiple (e. g. four) variants so as long as you are not having token copies of more than four different originals you are fine.
Can you keep "splitting" the tokens as well? Imagine if you "split" this twice then drop one or two other bifurcate creatures and split them as well. Then you tap like half of them attack or so. You got a grand mess right there.
The exile clause IMO isn't that helpful in this scenario since it immediately needs to keep "track of" multiple objects. It's like an Aura that attempted to be enchanting two creatures simultaneously.
It does have memory issues. As I made the mechanic up on the spot to make a different point that is unrelated to the memory issue, that question never came up. (I also think it maybe shouldn't work at instant speed.)
I recall projection and like its possibilities, but what do you think about the following alternate solution for this effect?
I'm partial to using exiled cards as memory aids.
Enchant creature
Enchanted creature has trample and lifelink and gets +2/+2.
While affinity is a somewhat infamous mechanic due to the fallout of affinity to artifacts, variants of the mechanic are not inherently impossible to develop. The safest form of affinity is tying the cost reduction mechanic to basic land types and printing it on colored cards, so their mana cost is not easily reduced to zero.
This card is one of several designs I made that experimented with indirectly colored cards. While the mana cost only contains red mana symbols the cards cost is also tied to your access to Swamps and hence black mana. You can imagine virtual monocolor hybrid mana symbols in these mana costs.
So just like Dross Golem this card gets access to a keyword usually seen in black which otherwise would not be found on a monocolored red card (here lifelink rather than the outdated fear). Just as with cards like Beseech the Queen I wouldn't want to push the effect to be something that you couldn't get from an artifact with a generic mana cost e. g. Loxodon Warhammer.
You can comment on this card here.